Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Workers

Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Verthaine said:
Economists=eggheads with fancy degrees that I hire to make me richer,instead of themselves.
Great,another thread in which people who have never worked (or owned) in the restaurant business is going to tell those of us with years of experiance in the profession what to do with our businesses.
Let the armchair quarterbacking begin.

Thank you, thank you, for our daily dose of BS.

This is an Economics Forum - are you sure you didn't make a wrong turn somewhere ... ?
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joG · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ocean515 said:
The laughable assumptions by a radical left Socialist Progressive think tank are meaningless.

There really isn't much to discuss.

It's amazing to me how Socialist Progressive SJW's are so anxious to destroy job opportunities for young people seeking their first jobs.

It would be wise for the opposition to take this message to them.

I am afraid tht that is just about right. We cannot raise MW and have more jobs too. Though, there are very special conditions under which an increase of MW could be neutral or slightly positive, this will invariably be short lived with the number of jobs falling over time to accumulate to a significant number. I read a few days ago that the CBO calculates job loss from an MW of $ 15 at maybe 500.000 or even 1.000.000 over the next ten years and will after an initial saving to the Treasury beginn to increase spending after three years, if I remember correctly, though, it might have been four.

Verthaine · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ttwtt78640 said:
Those that wish to "fight poverty" by raising "unskilled" labor costs (and by extension, prices) never seem to stop trying to sell their "fairness" plan.

I was a poor Creole kid in 1960's Bogalousa helping my momma make sandwiches fro her beat up meals on wheels whe I figured out what it took to become succesful and wealthy.
Hardwork+saving money+getting a better education+networking+having achievable goals+some luck=Prosperity.
Those who don't always want to take away from those of us who do.

Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

MaggieD said:
I like the bill. It's time for the bill. But, IMO, it doesn't go far enough. There should be a two-tiered system whereby those people under age 18 get paid X% of the higher minimum.

I think we will be surprised how this significant change will positively impact this country. The quality of our labor force will improve. There will be more competition for jobs causing people to elevate their education and skills.

Examples: I'm not going to have to struggle to understand a minimum wage ESL employee at the drive-thru. There will be enough competition for that $12 an hour job to create the incentive we need to see our immigrants anxious to hone their English language skills. Or they'll be out of work. Next, there will be more competition for jobs -- again incentivizing people to perform better and improve their work ethic.

Will we have to pay more for things? Yes,we will. But if we aren't willing to pay more for things in order for people left fortunate than ourselves to earn enough money thru a job-and-a-half to support themselves, we should probably re-evaluate our mindset. Will it have unintended consequences? What doesn't? But this isn't a reason to keep the minimum wage so low that the least of us can't support ourselves.

Thank you, thank you - I was beginning to think I was the only one in this forum with thought-processes located above the neck.

You are right also to underscore the effects it will have on career-advancement. Far too often, we think that economics has only primary effects. More money spent, more jobs, therefore more "goodness".

The "money-effect" does prompt people to better their skills/competencies because higher pay is a non-negligible incentive to obtain the necessary Tertiary Education that higher-paying jobs require.

NB: Unfortunately, the reverse is also true. In downturns, people accept lower-paying jobs in order to maintain income. But, if we get it right, those downturns should not have the profound impact as they did resulting from the Great Recession of 2009/10.
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ttwtt78640 · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
The Minimum Wage has very little to do with the past, and far more to do with the future.

Whatever the advance in the minimum wage, at any rate between $10 and $15 an hour (this latter having been selected by NYC) is a boon to the 50 million Americans living below the Poverty Threshold.

Btw, that's the population of California and Illinois combined. And you're dithering over a few bucks and hour, that will affect only casually the rate of cost inflation?

Moreover, you miss the point. By enhancing the minimum wage we are simply shifting money from the top (where people earn very decent income that they spend on consumption) to the bottom where people do not earn decent income and therefore spend none of it.

However, by expanding income at the bottom, we also enhance consumption - and the entire economy benefits.

Wow, if you don't understand that factor, then what a case of economic myopia ...
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I understand completely. The 80 year old lady living on a fixed pension, or the single parent working for slightly over the MW is not going to increase their consumption by even $1 because they already spend all of their income. How, exactly, are they expected to benefit from this "fairness" when they do not get a raise to increase their own consumption? The notion that (only?) those at the top will be affected by mandated universal price increases but not those just above the bottom is absurd.

ocean515 · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

joG said:
I am afraid tht that is just about right. We cannot raise MW and have more jobs too. Though, there are very special conditions under which an increase of MW could be neutral or slightly positive, this will invariably be short lived with the number of jobs falling over time to accumulate to a significant number. I read a few days ago that the CBO calculates job loss from an MW of $ 15 at maybe 500.000 or even 1.000.000 over the next ten years and will after an initial saving to the Treasury beginn to increase spending after three years, if I remember correctly, though, it might have been four.

At the end of the day, the push for minimum wage increases boils down to the following:

Richard Berman: Why Unions Want a Higher Minimum Wage - WSJ

The Labor Department's collective-bargaining agreements file has a limited number of contracts available, so we were unable to determine how widespread the practice is. But the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union says that pegging its wages to the federal minimum is commonplace. On its website, the UFCW notes that "oftentimes, union contracts are triggered to implement wage hikes in the case of minimum wage increases." Such increases, the UFCW says, are "one of the many advantages of being a union member."

This certainly explains why the corrupt SEIU is bankrolling the national $15 per hour narrative. It also answers why the SEIU owned Progressive California Legislature passed a statewide $15hr minimum wage to pander to the target audience.

4_4_2016_minimun-wage-california-28201_c0-312-3000-2061_s885x516.jpg

"Thunderous applause and cheers of “Si se puede” broke out as Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown signed his state’s bill. The law will increase California’s minimum wage by 50 cents next year and to $11 by 2018, before increasing by $1 every January until 2022."

Verthaine · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Thank you, thank you, for our daily dose of BS.

This is an Economics Forum - are you sure you didn't make a wrong turn somewhere ... ?
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Like I said,economists are people who get paid by people like me to make them richer.
Don't get mad because that's truth.
I own a company that manages restaurants,banquet halls and catering.
Do you even own your own business?
And if you do,how successful have you made it?
I have every right to be on this thread since I have 30 years in the business and this thread effects me and my company.

Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

joG said:
As a matter of fact, it is the reason why the Bundesbank forbade indexing and the EZB is trying to get it made illegal for Euroland.

Italy has shown how indexing can cause more harm than cure income unfairness.

So, yes, indexing has to be employed correctly. I recall Italy having particularly a problem with it in the 1990s, and it has been overused in the public-sector in France as well. Both of which help feed pressure upon the general rate of inflation.

Here is document that explains the feature in numerous EU countries. Note that indexing in Italy is not "automatic", which is a damn fine feature in any country employing it. It must not be automatic, but justified by circumstances.

Excerpt from the linked document:

As wage indexation in the public sector may play an important
signalling role for wage negotiators in other sectors, a specific responsibility rests on the public
sector to make its contribution to avoiding second-round effects on inflation.

And it is far better than doing nothing and allowing those below the Poverty Threshold to suffer or turn to crime ...
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ttwtt78640 · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Fletch said:
One would actually have to work to have a work ethic. A 16 year old applying for his/her first job has no work history upon which an employer can make an evaluation. If you are going to pay someone $15 per hour to flip burgers, I would hire someone with a work history that I could review rather than some kid who might not last two days. Entry level jobs will mostly disappear leaving youth unemployment at high levels.

I had a work history before age 16 - with a newspaper route for the WP and as a "baker's assistant" (kitchen clean up) at a donut shop. After getting my driver's license I was able to do much better.

ttwtt78640 · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Verthaine said:
I was a poor Creole kid in 1960's Bogalousa helping my momma make sandwiches fro her beat up meals on wheels whe I figured out what it took to become succesful and wealthy.
Hardwork+saving money+getting a better education+networking+having achievable goals+some luck=Prosperity.
Those who don't always want to take away from those of us who do.

Luck is simply the confluence of opportunity and preparedness.

Fletch · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ttwtt78640 said:
I had a work history before age 16 - with a newspaper route for the WP and as a "baker's assistant" (kitchen clean up) at a donut shop. After getting my driver's license I was able to do much better.

So did I. But who are you going to hire to do a $15 unskilled position--a 16 year old with a paper route or a 30 year old with a verifiable work history?

Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Mycroft said:
Raising the minimum wage might lift wages for 35 million workers, but it'll also raise prices for over 300 million citizens (which includes those 35 million workers.

You ever heard of costs and benefits? Mr. Cooper talked a whole lot about benefits, but completely ignored the costs side of the issue.

As I said above, the increase in the rate of price inflation will be offset very largely by the augmentation of Demand. The higher the Demand, the higher the need to Produce - and therefore the Expansion of employment.

The only real downside is at the very lowest level of production. That is, the reason that so much of rudimentary manufacturing fled to China was because of America's high-cost of labor (compare to China). Which is why we must foresee that context (both today and for tomorrow) by making Vocational Tertiary Education/Training free, gratis and for nothing.

Or, we taxpayers just end up supporting UI for some and jail-time for others ...
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Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Verthaine said:
Like I said,economists are people who get paid by people like me to make them richer.
Don't get mad because that's truth.
I own a company that manages restaurants,banquet halls and catering.
Do you even own your own business?
And if you do,how successful have you made it?
I have every right to be on this thread since I have 30 years in the business and this thread effects me and my company.

You're telling me "the truth" in an Economics Forum?

Wow! For someone who teaches the subject, you can't imagine how grateful I am ... :doh
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Verthaine · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
You're telling me "the truth" in an Economics Forum?

Wow! For someone who teaches the subject, you can't imagine how grateful I am ... :doh
_________________________

So basically,you have zero experience owning your own business and knowing what it takes to keep it profitable.
But you expect people like me to listen to you?
Those who can't, teach.

ttwtt78640 · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Fletch said:
So did I. But who are you going to hire to do a $15 unskilled position--a 16 year old with a paper route or a 30 year old with a verifiable work history?

That is not quite so clear cut. Why is that 30 year old still "unskilled"? I have no problem understanding why that 16 year old is willing to start at the bottom in a new higher paying field but that 30 year old has some serious explaining to do.

ludin · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Mycroft said:
Raising the minimum wage might lift wages for 35 million workers, but it'll also raise prices for over 300 million citizens (which includes those 35 million workers.

You ever heard of costs and benefits? Mr. Cooper talked a whole lot about benefits, but completely ignored the costs side of the issue.

TANSTAAFL, you know.

people always leave that out for some reason. these people think they can raise wages and expenses and that prices will simply stay the same
because out of the goodness of their heart business owners will simply just eat the cost.

ludin · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

WCH said:
It would encourage 35 million to stay in that dead end job.

that is the bigger issue. why go out and hard a more demanding job when you can work an easy job for the same price.

ludin · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

MaggieD said:
If I assume you believe a 16-year-old is equal in skills and work ethic to a 30-year-old single mom, then I would remind you that the number of kids between 16 and 18 who want to and can work, is woefully inadequate to field all the minimum wage jobs out there.

Your mindset is self-serving, IMO. It's time we looked at the workers who are exploited.

there are not exploited workers in America we have laws against that sort of thing.
if you don't like what you are being paid then do something to improve that.

if you want to drop out of high school and not go to college then that is your choice but then
you have to live with the consequences.

chuckiechan · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

The easiest way to raise wages is the have a labor shortage. And open borders is not the way to do it. Unless of course businesses are paying you off so they don't have to give raises.... Then you are working for them not the people.

Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ttwtt78640 said:
I understand completely. The 80 year old lady living on a fixed pension, or the single parent working for slightly over the MW is not going to increase their consumption by even $1 because they already spend all of their income. How, exactly, are they expected to benefit from this "fairness" when they do not get a raise to increase their own consumption? The notion that (only?) those at the top will be affected by mandated universal price increases but not those just above the bottom is absurd.

Here we go again with the "Little Old Lady" story, that always comes up when discussing economics at the bottom. Next you'll be commenting that the LOLs are more in number than those incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold!

If done correctly, raising minimum-wages means shifting income from the top to the bottom. Of course, if you are someone who knee-jerks at the altar of Right-wing Economics, evidently you find that bad.

So, what I suggest (yet again) is that we change the taxation rip-off introduced by Reckless Ronnie in the 1980s and replace the flat-tax rate of 30% with a progressive rate up to 90% for the highest earners.

Then we use that money-flood to fund both UI and Tertiary Education for those who are perpetually unemployed!

You and I have different yardsticks applied to the subject of economics ...
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Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ocean515 said:
It's amazing to me how Socialist Progressive SJW's are so anxious to destroy job opportunities for young people seeking their first jobs.

Right, and only dorks who had no functional notion whatsoever of a market-economy would make the above statement ...
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BrettNortje · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

joG said:
I tend to doubt the existence of a free lunch here no matter how complicated we make it. But maybe you could explain.

Well, the living wage can be calculated from the floor of what they earn - one thousand dollars mean milk and bread, for each day, per family, should cost so much or other. this is the living wage. beyond this, they may earn commission which does not get factored into the living wage and costs. this would mean they may be able to buy a few luxuries some months, and just get by others, depending on how business is. the good thing is, that they will try for themselves from now on.

ocean515 · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Lafayette said:
Right, and only dorks who had no functional notion whatsoever of a market-economy would make the above statement ...
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Interesting. Almost the precise words I think of when I read about these minimum wage screeds from ideologically challenged people.

Lafayette · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

Verthaine said:
So basically,you have zero experience owning your own business and knowing what it takes to keep it profitable.
But you expect people like me to listen to you?
Those who can't, teach.

You don't know me, or where I am coming from and never will.

Do come back when you have something cogent to add to the debate.

With something better than just an asinine putdown ...
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Fletch · Sep 5, 2016

Re: Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Work

ttwtt78640 said:
That is not quite so clear cut. Why is that 30 year old still "unskilled"? I have no problem understanding why that 16 year old is willing to start at the bottom in a new higher paying field but that 30 year old has some serious explaining to do.

I don't know. Why are there so many 30 year old unskilled workers today that we have to double the minimum? But if Mcdonalds is hiring, and they have two applicants--one 16 with no work history and the other with experience in fast food, who do you think they will hire?

Raising Minimum Wage to $12 by 2020 Would Lift Wages for 35 Million American Workers

Lafayette

joG

Verthaine

Lafayette

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

ocean515

Verthaine

Lafayette

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

Fletch

Lafayette

Lafayette

Verthaine

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

ludin

ludin

ludin

chuckiechan

Lafayette

Lafayette

BrettNortje

ocean515

Lafayette

Fletch