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Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would let

Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

I hope you are not ashamed of that fact.

As a Canadian, you benefit from two national-services of which Americans can only dream:
*A national health service that costs (per capita) only half as much as the US, whilst delivering a life-span that 3-years longer, see here:
View attachment 67200313

and,

*A national post-secondary schooling program costing half that of the US:

View attachment 67200312

As a people, Canadians are better-off as regards the above two criteria than Americans ...
Quite proud of what we have as a society with safety nets, health care and such.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

If the exchange rate for the US dollar changed in such as way that the US dollar lost value against other currencies, which is what I think you are suggesting, then foreign goods would become more expensive in the US and we would import less, and American goods would become less expensive in other countries and we would export more.

Now think about this, what denomination of currency would they exchange their US dollar denominated assets for? If they exchanged their US Treasuries (which are effectively US dollars) for US dollars, then they are still holding dollars and their position hasn't changed any. Do you really think they would prefer to hold jamaican dollars, or Mexican Pesos?

That's not a bad thing, it would put Americans to work, the labor market would continue to tighten, incomes for the non-ownership class would increase, etc. American companies would do very well, they would sell more domestically and world wide.

But Saudi Arabia selling $750 billion in US treasuries isn't going to make more than a percent or two difference in the exchange rate. If it's real estate or business investment assets that are located in the US, then that's a good thing also, I would prefer that Americans own America, not Saudis

The exchange rate of the dollar went up. Exactly the opposite of a export job creating drop in value. This while the USA created 6 - 10 trillion dollars of new debt. The exchange should have dropped, but it did not.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

The exchange rate of the dollar went up. Exactly the opposite of a export job creating drop in value. This while the USA created 6 - 10 trillion dollars of new debt. The exchange should have dropped, but it did not.

So what you are sayings is that exchange rates move counter intuitively? So if Saudi decides to dump $750 billion dollars of assets that are denominated in US dollars, the dollar will strengthen even more?

Well at least I will continue to get a bargain when I purchase foreign made goods. Otherwise, this won't really make much difference in my life.

Or maybe you are just pointing out that conservative economic theory is bunk and that the debt actually doesn't particularly mean anything.

The debt is just an accounting issue, nothing more. It never has to be repaid, and it has always existed and every country has a national debt. The national debt actually helps to stablize currencies in several ways, thus it is exceptionally important that it exists, and as we become a more wealthy nation the national debt will continue to grow. To reduce the national debt would be to reduce our economy because it would reduce the amount of money in existence. If we ever fully repaid all debt, there would be no more money because the way we create it is by borrowing it into existence and then spending it into the economy.

Thanks, but I already knew that.
 
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Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Quite proud of what we have as a society with safety nets, health care and such.

Yes, you (plural) have a right to be proud for these attributes of a "modern" social-democracy.

Is it infectious? Maybe your southern neighbors could take a hint ... ?
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

The exchange rate of the dollar went up. Exactly the opposite of a export job creating drop in value. This while the USA created 6 - 10 trillion dollars of new debt. The exchange should have dropped, but it did not.

Do you really think jobs are dependent upon exports or debt?

What reasoning are you trying to pursue, because it is not clear?

Jobs are not entirely dependent upon foreign-exchange rates. They are more dependent upon solid Internal Demand.

And when said Demand went to hell in a hand-basket because some Wall-Street Banksters manipulated the mortgage securitization-market and all hell broke loose*, it was the fault of who?

The Man on the Moon ... ?

*And didn't they walk away from that one without a scratch? Who went to jail for generalized fraud?
Nobody - all they did was pay a massive fine. (Very much like a "cost-of-doing business", I say.)
 
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Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

sue them? that's ridiculous. instead, we should pull out and force them to stabilize their own region. meanwhile, we'll use the money saved to build infrastructure and provide services like health care for our citizens.

Agreed if they keep up any threats. Also I admit there's lots of areas of politics and governments I don't know about so how would an american citizen sue a foreign government, under what court system and what rule of law? Then in turn doesn't that allow other foreign citizens to attempt to sue us? Is that a door people really want open?
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Yes, you (plural) have a right to be proud for these attributes of a "modern" social-democracy.

Is it infectious? Maybe your southern neighbors could take a hint ... ?

They will eventually get there. The younger generation will demand it.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

The private sector brought us lower prices, not Obama.

LOL, he just happened to be standing around, emptying the wastebaskets when the private sector just "up and realized that they could produce more oil". Yeah, that sounds a lot like the narrative about killing bin Laden which made its way around the conservative blogosphere.
Obama just happened to be in the situation room emptying the wastebaskets when suddenly Seal Team Six just "up and realized that they should capture and kill bin Laden" and if anything, they did it DESPITE Obama's continual efforts to lure bin Laden to a Motel 6 over in Tampa for a round of golf and some presidential cigars.

Because we all know Obama is really just a Kenyan Muslim Socialist who secretly loves Osama bin Laden.
And Seal Team Six operates independently of a "Commander-In-Chief", right?

Yeah, presidents do not control oil prices, except when those oil prices are too high...THEN the President DOES control them, and deserves the blame, right? He also creates jobs and takes them away too, right?

LEVERSObama2.jpg
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Let's say that people could use SA for 9/11. How exactly would you get them to pay up?

Some people don't think we should sue them, they think we should impose sanctions on them and cut them off entirely.
Some even think we should have Congress declare war on them, which is exactly what we should have done on 9-12-2001.
All that "shock and awe" should have descended on Jiddah, Riyadh, Mecca and Medina.
The entire Saudi Air Force should have been flattened.

Lawsuits? Who cares about a damn lawsuit? I sure don't, I care about the three thousand people who died, I care about the fact that we failed to assign responsibility to the real attackers. I care that a sitting president gave aid and comfort to an enemy and got away with treason.
I care that his vice president did, too...and then threatened to hold each and every congressman and senator personally responsible if the vote to invade Iraq failed and we had another attack...a second attack which, by the way, would have again come from the enemy they were giving aid and comfort to.

And no Saudis should have been allowed on a plane out of here either. They should have been held for questioning.
This isn't something new, I've felt this way since 9-12-2001.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

iraq was due to a never-ending occupation. The actual invasion was over before anyone noticed and hussein captured. That's all i'm advocating, deposing the saudi royals, taking their oil, and ending the deal with the devil

And getting the oil from SA wouldn't be a never-ending matter, too? We could only get it as long as we occupied it...which means that the occupation would last every bit as long as we expected to get oil from there.

Not only that, but you're describing a war not against a nation with 1980's Soviet tech, but against a nation with 2000's American tech. Yes, we'd still win, but only an idiot would think it would be as easy or quick as the Iraq invasion.

And apparently you're under the assumption that once we're there, the locals would roll over and play nice. Here's a clue: in Iraq, at least we had some veneer of "we're the good guys". In SA, we would NOT...which means that every Sunni nation - including nuclear-armed Pakistan - would be joining the fight against the Great Satan.

Like I said, good thing you're not in charge.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

You think the government of Saudi Arabia was involved in 9/11 or are you only saying that their list of terrorist organizations is different than our own?

Support and funding for the hijackers and for the plan reaches all the way to the top levels of Saudi government, but first you need to remind yourself that there really IS NO "government" of Saudi Arabia.
There isn't.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does not HAVE a "government" as we know it. It is an ABSOLUTE MONARCHY, therefore this "government" that you speak of is actually the family, the ROYAL FAMILY. Saudi royals produce anywhere from 20 to 300 children each, did you forget that?
This "royal family" consists of something like twelve thousand princes, did you know that?

We in the West seem to forget that we are not dealing with a government in the traditional Western sense of the word.
We are dealing with a royal family which operates according to seventh century mindsets and principles, and we were stupid enough to inject 20th/21st century money and technology INTO that seventh century mindset.
What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

Stop painting this ridiculous mental picture of some nameless and faceless set of Saudi bureaucrats typing away on some keyboard in a windowless office somewhere in the bowels of a Saudi "city hall"....that kind of thing doesn't exist, there's no desk jockey who leaves at 5PM and goes home to mow his lawn and drink beer with his bowling buddies.
The executive decision making process comes from the royal family itself.

And the 28 pages that implicate people in positions of power all the way at the TOP are about to be declassified, but people who have HAD access to READ those pages have already confirmed what I am saying. They just haven't named the names yet but we know who the names are.
You can start with the gentleman who used to have his own office in the Bush Executive wing of the White House.
He was affectionately referred to as "Bandar Bush".
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

And getting the oil from SA wouldn't be a never-ending matter, too? We could only get it as long as we occupied it...which means that the occupation would last every bit as long as we expected to get oil from there.

Not only that, but you're describing a war not against a nation with 1980's Soviet tech, but against a nation with 2000's American tech. Yes, we'd still win, but only an idiot would think it would be as easy or quick as the Iraq invasion.

And apparently you're under the assumption that once we're there, the locals would roll over and play nice. Here's a clue: in Iraq, at least we had some veneer of "we're the good guys". In SA, we would NOT...which means that every Sunni nation - including nuclear-armed Pakistan - would be joining the fight against the Great Satan.

Like I said, good thing you're not in charge.

Heh heh, the demon at the gate isn't America, it's ISIS.
And we actually should have invaded the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on 9-12-2001, it's too late to do it now.
But does the Kingdom deserve to sit at the table of international trade, unbent by sanctions?
I don't think they do.
We've had a fifty year embargo against Cuba for a lot less.

I think the sanctions we leveled against Iran should be leveled against the Kingdom instead.
I think that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia needs to made into a pariah and humbled on the world stage.

We CAN do that, and 750 billion isn't the end of the world. It's less than TARP.
It's less than it cost us to do Shock and Awe over Baghdad.

And, there's no rule that says ANY of this has to be done like a light switch being turned ON or OFF.
We can do all of this on any damn timetable we wish, it can all happen in slow motion if we like, a gradual withering away of all the good will we have bestowed upon this corrupt pack of criminals.

We can slowly withdraw our military support, one item at a time, we can slowly withdraw our technological support, we can gradually reduce our markets, our banking, the access that we grant to telecommunications, we can start imposing extra security measures on all air travel to and from the Kingdom, we can close the noose as quickly or as slowly as we like.

Because in the end, they are NOT as wealthy or as powerful as we are no matter what, and we ARE a large part of the reason they HAVE as much power as they do have.

They're stuck between us and ISIS.
You can't tell me that they would prefer to invite ISIS into the Kingdom, it's their worst nightmare.
They'd much prefer us. True, they really would prefer that we go on being their shaved apes, laborers and mercenaries but in the end, they will take whatever they can get because they are NOT in a position to dictate as much as people think they are.
 
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Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Agreed if they keep up any threats. Also I admit there's lots of areas of politics and governments I don't know about so how would an american citizen sue a foreign government, under what court system and what rule of law? Then in turn doesn't that allow other foreign citizens to attempt to sue us? Is that a door people really want open?

yeah, i agree. it's probably not going to happen under the current international court system. that system is pretty much only effective in prosecuting third world despots who commit war crimes.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Support and funding for the hijackers and for the plan reaches all the way to the top levels of Saudi government, but first you need to remind yourself that there really IS NO "government" of Saudi Arabia.
There isn't.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does not HAVE a "government" as we know it. It is an ABSOLUTE MONARCHY, therefore this "government" that you speak of is actually the family, the ROYAL FAMILY. Saudi royals produce anywhere from 20 to 300 children each, did you forget that?
This "royal family" consists of something like twelve thousand princes, did you know that?

We in the West seem to forget that we are not dealing with a government in the traditional Western sense of the word.
We are dealing with a royal family which operates according to seventh century mindsets and principles, and we were stupid enough to inject 20th/21st century money and technology INTO that seventh century mindset.
What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

Stop painting this ridiculous mental picture of some nameless and faceless set of Saudi bureaucrats typing away on some keyboard in a windowless office somewhere in the bowels of a Saudi "city hall"....that kind of thing doesn't exist, there's no desk jockey who leaves at 5PM and goes home to mow his lawn and drink beer with his bowling buddies.
The executive decision making process comes from the royal family itself.

And the 28 pages that implicate people in positions of power all the way at the TOP are about to be declassified, but people who have HAD access to READ those pages have already confirmed what I am saying. They just haven't named the names yet but we know who the names are.
You can start with the gentleman who used to have his own office in the Bush Executive wing of the White House.
He was affectionately referred to as "Bandar Bush".

28 page report?
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

My understanding is that at the rate they are going SA is going to be broke in three years, in which case this asset is getting sold no matter what we do.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Heh heh, the demon at the gate isn't America, it's ISIS.
And we actually should have invaded the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on 9-12-2001, it's too late to do it now.
But does the Kingdom deserve to sit at the table of international trade, unbent by sanctions?
I don't think they do.
We've had a fifty year embargo against Cuba for a lot less.

I think the sanctions we leveled against Iran should be leveled against the Kingdom instead.
I think that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia needs to made into a pariah and humbled on the world stage.

We CAN do that, and 750 billion isn't the end of the world. It's less than TARP.
It's less than it cost us to do Shock and Awe over Baghdad.

And, there's no rule that says ANY of this has to be done like a light switch being turned ON or OFF.
We can do all of this on any damn timetable we wish, it can all happen in slow motion if we like, a gradual withering away of all the good will we have bestowed upon this corrupt pack of criminals.

We can slowly withdraw our military support, one item at a time, we can slowly withdraw our technological support, we can gradually reduce our markets, our banking, the access that we grant to telecommunications, we can start imposing extra security measures on all air travel to and from the Kingdom, we can close the noose as quickly or as slowly as we like.

Because in the end, they are NOT as wealthy or as powerful as we are no matter what, and we ARE a large part of the reason they HAVE as much power as they do have.

They're stuck between us and ISIS.
You can't tell me that they would prefer to invite ISIS into the Kingdom, it's their worst nightmare.
They'd much prefer us. True, they really would prefer that we go on being their shaved apes, laborers and mercenaries but in the end, they will take whatever they can get because they are NOT in a position to dictate as much as people think they are.

That's a really interesting post. I agree with a few things you say, but being a pragmatist with an eye on realpolitik...mostly no. You can't forget that SA is the home of the holiest of holies for 1.2B Muslims around the planet (over a third of which are in Southeast Asia, btw). If we were to do that which alienates hundreds of billions of Muslims (a couple of million who are in the U.S.), that's gonna come back and bit us in the rear. What's more, while we ourselves have a much-decreased need of their oil, the same cannot be said of much of the rest of the world. If we allowed SA's oil fields to become threatened - or worse, damaged or destroyed - then this would cause oil prices worldwide to skyrocket, which leads to widespread economic problems in every nation including our own, since the prices would skyrocket here, too.

Here's a hard, hard lesson about realpolitik: sometimes, when the villain is too big or too important, you have to let him get away with what he did because the price of holding him accountable is simply too high. The best example I can think of is the sinking of the nuclear submarine USS Scorpion. The official story is that she sunk due to an engineering casualty - which you can easily read about. However, there's a truly significant body of hard evidence showing that she was torpedoed, apparently by the Soviets in what may have been retaliation for the sinking of one of their nuclear submarines in the Pacific a month or so before...which would mean that our government almost certainly knew that the Soviets sunk our submarine and sent our sailors and others on board to their deaths, but did nothing to ensure justice for them.

But that's the problem, isn't it? If the president had come out and told the public that the Soviets had just torpedoed one of our submarines, what would have happened then? I don't know how old you are, but being retired Navy, I remember the Cold War very well and I can attest that yes, the missiles would likely have flown that day...and hundreds of millions of innocent lives (at a minimum!) would have been ended. In other words, yes, in this case - as with SA today - when the villain is too big or too important, you have to let him get away with what he did because the price of holding him accountable is simply too high. It doesn't mean that one forgets or forgives, but that richly-justified retribution doesn't have to consist of that which may well lead to validation of the old Chinese proverb, "when planning revenge, dig two graves."

Come to think of it, WWI (and the 10M people who died) is a wonderful example of what can happen when this principle is ignored.

This is pragmatism and realpolitik. It sucks...but it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

28 page report?

Yeah, of course.
Everyone who has had access is saying the same thing, or maybe I should say DOING the same thing, shaking their heads, clucking their tongues, and making reference to the fact that support is coming directly from the top echelons of the royal family.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

That's a really interesting post. I agree with a few things you say, but being a pragmatist with an eye on realpolitik...mostly no. You can't forget that SA is the home of the holiest of holies for 1.2B Muslims around the planet (over a third of which are in Southeast Asia, btw). If we were to do that which alienates hundreds of billions of Muslims (a couple of million who are in the U.S.), that's gonna come back and bit us in the rear. What's more, while we ourselves have a much-decreased need of their oil, the same cannot be said of much of the rest of the world. If we allowed SA's oil fields to become threatened - or worse, damaged or destroyed - then this would cause oil prices worldwide to skyrocket, which leads to widespread economic problems in every nation including our own, since the prices would skyrocket here, too.

Here's a hard, hard lesson about realpolitik: sometimes, when the villain is too big or too important, you have to let him get away with what he did because the price of holding him accountable is simply too high. The best example I can think of is the sinking of the nuclear submarine USS Scorpion. The official story is that she sunk due to an engineering casualty - which you can easily read about. However, there's a truly significant body of hard evidence showing that she was torpedoed, apparently by the Soviets in what may have been retaliation for the sinking of one of their nuclear submarines in the Pacific a month or so before...which would mean that our government almost certainly knew that the Soviets sunk our submarine and sent our sailors and others on board to their deaths, but did nothing to ensure justice for them.

But that's the problem, isn't it? If the president had come out and told the public that the Soviets had just torpedoed one of our submarines, what would have happened then? I don't know how old you are, but being retired Navy, I remember the Cold War very well and I can attest that yes, the missiles would likely have flown that day...and hundreds of millions of innocent lives (at a minimum!) would have been ended. In other words, yes, in this case - as with SA today - when the villain is too big or too important, you have to let him get away with what he did because the price of holding him accountable is simply too high. It doesn't mean that one forgets or forgives, but that richly-justified retribution doesn't have to consist of that which may well lead to validation of the old Chinese proverb, "when planning revenge, dig two graves."

Come to think of it, WWI (and the 10M people who died) is a wonderful example of what can happen when this principle is ignored.

This is pragmatism and realpolitik. It sucks...but it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative.

---Umm, excellent comments, and I respect what you have to say very much.
I'm just taking issue with the suck to reality ratio and I daresay the suckage is now approaching a tipping point.
Some reasonable people (and I do like to think I am one) would even say we past that tipping point on 9/11/2001.
Sinking a submarine is one thing, sinking a building with three thousand people in it on our own shores is another.
Realpolitik or no, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia committed an act of war on America, and a sitting president had his intel apparatus mount a gigantic psyop to convince Americans that it was someone else.

How much sucking are we to continue doing? High oil prices? World petroleum tensions? Pissed off Muslims who can't make Hajj?
I'm trying my best to balance that against what our own leadership has done to us AND what SA has done to us and I wonder if the scale is being tampered with.

Should we sacrifice a few thousand more innocent people? Let them blow up some more buildings? Jack up the price of gas another dollar?
Where DO we ACTUALLY draw the line? When DO we ACTUALLY say that the line was crossed and hold the fat, pink assed King accountable?
Pragmatism implies that we gain something.
What have we gained? Peace in the Middle East? Cheap gasoline? Don't forget, the REAL price of gasoline should include all the war costs and all the terrorism costs, so we're already paying eleven bucks a gallon.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

So, Saudi Arabia is essentially holding our economy hostage at the moment...
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Let's be honest, even in today's economy three quarters of a trillion dollars is a lot of money. It's about what we paid for the initial invasion of Iraq.
Hmmmm, once we put it in those terms, it's almost worth it to finally stick it to the people who really were responsible for 9/11, isn't it?

And don't forget, if they do this, it will be a grave blow to THEIR economy, a much more serious blow than it will be to ours.
And they can ill afford it.
Therefore I view it as an empty threat, bring it on, bitchez.
Amazingly parochial view. You really think that the US is the only game in town? You don't think that there are great investments around the world but especially in Europe and the Far East?
Have no idea if they will do it but this is simply one more indication why a country should not run up $19 trillion in debt and assume that there will be no negative consequences.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Amazingly parochial view. You really think that the US is the only game in town? You don't think that there are great investments around the world but especially in Europe and the Far East?
Have no idea if they will do it but this is simply one more indication why a country should not run up $19 trillion in debt and assume that there will be no negative consequences.

I didn't say it was the only game in town.
I'm saying at some point we need to admit to ourselves that playing janitor for the Saudis is not getting us anything in return but more grief.
Pull the scab off quickly.
 
Re: Saudis threaten to sell $750 billion US assets if Congress passes bill that would

Saudi Arabia is one of the worst countries in the world and America should do NOTHING WHATSOEVER to support it.

It's not like America needs it's oil anymore - she gets almost 3 times more oil from Canada alone then the entire Persisn Gulf.

Tell the Saudi Royal Family to shove it.
 
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