The Most Important Economic Issue Never Discussed

Lafayette said:

I disagree strongly.

An education gives one the means to face the world with an inquisitive mind (know how to ask the right questions), and to not be afraid of the consequences. To undertake work in multiple variations - especially in the Services Industries that is very diverse - also mastering new techniques, write and express oneself competently and produce real added-value for an employer.

It prepares one to confront the market for employment, and not simply submit to its vagaries.

You cannot find those competencies in someone who has not had that "skill training", of which a 2-year gives one a good grounding, and 4-year education gives one a lot of training ...

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'You cannot'? Oh come on now.

There are lots of billionaires who either never finished college or never even went like Gates, Jobs, Woz., Zuckerberg, Dell, etc..

Top 100 Entrepreneurs Who Made Millions Without A College Degree - Business Insider


I am an investor and I learned almost nothing in university that has helped me in this field. I learned almost everything on my own/'on the street'.

To say that you have to get a diploma/degree to prepare you for life is just not so, IMO. It helps many people - especially those that need a degree for their chosen field (doctors, lawyers, engineers)...but I guarantee you that being out in the real world, travelling/working/living is a much better way to learn about life then in the relatively cocoon environment that is campus life.

DA60 said:

'You cannot'? Oh come on now. There are lots of billionaires who either never finished college or never even went like Gates, Jobs, Woz., Zuckerberg, Dell, etc..

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Zuckerberg was a programmer whilst at Harvard. The idea of a Facebook came from two other students. (Who probably got it from their elders, if said elders belonged to, say, the Rotary Club that has had a "Facebook" for a donkey's age.)

Gates was not that great a programmer. I have known people in the iconic picture Microsoft start-up group who have told me so. Doesn't matter, what he had was "vision".

He went to IBM and told them, "OK, if you wanna use my operating-system, here's what you gotta do". IBM understood, and despite early competition from "CP/M" (also a PC operating system), Microsoft took off on IBM-wings. Gates dumped IBM when he decided to "generalize" his operating system for all PC-structures. He had never signed ownership rights of MS-DOS over to IBM - a smart move.

What I mean is this: You are making a mountain out of mole-hill when you insist that you don't need a university-degree to become a billionaire. I quite agree, and never intended any other meaning.

But, if America already has far too many billionaires, it is because of inadequate taxation instituted expressly by a Reckless Reagan. (Yes, I too am tired of repeating the same statement - but its historical impact upon the nation has decided greatly what has unfortunately happened since then.)

The greatest rip-off of GDP in the history of mankind - on behalf of only 10% of American households. Even under French kings, the "Royal Circle" of landed-gentry who owed their allegiance to a monarch never were this great a number.

And yet, come 1789, most of them anyway lost their heads as a consequence!

Should we do the same in America?

(Lemme give that question some thought ... ;^)

mmi said:

What "welfare benefits" are you referring to?

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Food stamps, mostly.

imagep said:

I have a close friend who keeps telling me that, but I just find it hard to believe that our government hands out checks to just anyone who doesn't work and doesn't have kids and who isn't handicapped.

Is it that easy to get welfare? Can a 25 year old single non-handicapped male living at his 'rents house really qualify for welfare? Isn't it true that most forms of welfare require the receipent to work?

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Able-Bodied Adults Without Dependents (ABAWDs) | Food and Nutrition Service

Many places have found ways around work requirements.

mmi said:

Some people continue to believe that a liberal education has value beyond employment opportunities.

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those are the same people that are crying about their student loan balance because they cant find a job that pays them over 50k annually

a liberal education is fine....as long as you dont go into debt to acquire one in something that wont pay you back

but going 60k in debt to get a sociology major is beyond stupid....

phattonez said:

Whether or not this is the most important issue, clearly this is huge, and yet I never really hear anything about this. 11-12% of young males are not working, and presumably living off of welfare. This rate was tiny in the 1950's. So why does no one discuss this? How much of an impact does this have on our standard of living? And what can we do about it?

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That's an easy question. The development is mainly due to policies that are holy cows that it would be heretical to point to.

imagep said:

Phatz, why do you think that fewer young men are working today?

If they aren't working, what are they doing? Just chilling? Or maybe they are in college. Or maybe they aren't working because they can't find a job. I dunno.

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Playing video games.... I'm not joking. With only a small handful of exceptions, most of the young men in that age range spend a substantial amount of time playing video games. Where I work, we employ quite a few entry level people in this age range and a year or so ago there was big video game released (don't ask me which one, since my form of gaming is playing Bloons Tower Defense on my PC) and we had a substantial number of call-ins the next three days.

imagep said:

Phatz, why do you think that fewer young men are working today?

If they aren't working, what are they doing? Just chilling? Or maybe they are in college. Or maybe they aren't working because they can't find a job. I dunno.

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One possible factor is the increase in SSDI claims made and approved.

The proportion of eligible workers applying for disability benefits also has doubled in the past 10 years, according to the SSA. Two main reasons are driving the increase, explains The National Association of Social Security Claimants’ Representatives.

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Read more: States With the Most Americans on Disability - 24/7 Wall St. States With the Most Americans on Disability - 24/7 Wall St.

phattonez said:

Food stamps, mostly.

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The work requirement for SNAP benefits was indeed waived in many areas in recent years due to the Great Recession. As the USDA link you posted indicates, now that the labor market has recovered, that's changing.

"For More Than A Million Food Stamp Recipients, The Clock Is Now Ticking," NPR, Jan 31, 2016

About one million current recipients are affected. Yer analysis seems to be that many of those people are young, able-bodied men without dependents who decide they can go without employment earnings because they can receive about $2400/yr in nutrition assistance. That's around six hours a week at minimum wage. It looks to me like there's more than laziness involved.

As that NPR article notes, Americans who fall into this category "are less likely than the general population to have high school diplomas and valid driver's licenses." This group includes thousands of our neighbors who are "homeless, [were] recently released from prison, or [are] dealing with trauma from military service, abuse, or violence in their communities — all of which can make it harder to get a job."

mmi said:

Some people continue to believe that a liberal education has value beyond employment opportunities.

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That's a sad fact, it's likely the origin of much of our job/income/angsty youth issues. If people were prepared for, I don't know...prepared for thriving in our economic market, they might you know, be able to find jobs, make money, close the income gap, all those things liberals claim to be about. Yet they hamstring public education to ensure they can't succeed..what sense does that make?

imagep said:

Phatz, why do you think that fewer young men are working today?

If they aren't working, what are they doing? Just chilling? Or maybe they are in college. Or maybe they aren't working because they can't find a job. I dunno.

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Men going to college is on the decline, much like men in the work force, so I doubt men being in college is a key factor here.

Mach said:

If people were prepared for … thriving in our economic market

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I strongly support improvements in our industrial policy that would produce better outcomes in the labor market. If that means shifting some resources, I'd be open to the idea.

phattonez said:

So why does no one discuss this? How much of an impact does this have on our standard of living? And what can we do about it?

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1) work force participation is discussed a lot

2) not much impact on our standard of living but mostly on those who don't work

3) caused by:

a) too large social safety net
b) enough wealth nowadays so that families often provide safety net
c) liberal economy so few good jobs
d) liberal non judgmental culture that does not judge loafer/loser types,

James972 said:

1) work force participation is discussed a lot 2) not much impact on our standard of living but mostly on those who don't work 3) caused by: a) too large social safety net b) enough wealth nowadays so that families often provide safety net c) liberal economy so few good jobs d) liberal non judgmental culture that does not judge loafer/loser types,

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lol. See, I don't really care to judge loafers, I just don't want to enable them involuntarily, if you know what I mean.

mmi said:

I strongly support improvements in our industrial policy that would produce better outcomes in the labor market. If that means shifting some resources, I'd be open to the idea.

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Wrong way. We should break the teachers union (liberal, 100% democrat) stranglehold on education, and educate our children to thrive in a global market economy. The idea that any asshat in Washington, especially a liberal, would have the first clue as to how to "shift some resources around", to dramatically improve the economy, is outrageous. The way it works now is that MILLIONS of people, with very high vested, personal interest, make those decisions on shifting resources. Trying to do better, with a handful of politicians with no skin in the game

Mach said:

The idea that any asshat in Washington, especially a liberal, would have the first clue as to how to "shift some resources around", to dramatically improve the economy, is outrageous.

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very very true but libsocialists lack the IQ to understand how efficiently capitalism allocates resources so like children believing in Santa Claus they believe in magical government. They are not smart enough to meaningfully participate in the political process so the only hope is to disenfranchise them.

James972 said:

very very true but libsocialists lack the IQ to understand how efficiently capitalism allocates resources so like children believing in Santa Claus they believe in magical government. They are not smart enough to meaningfully participate in the political process so the only hope is to disenfranchise them.

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I disagree. The higher road would be to educate them. You do that by defeating the teachers unions and letting those same efficiencies improve our education system. Something that Republicans and all their high and mighty union busting rhetoric, have yet to do. They prefer to just sell favors to big business, far easier and far more profitable.

Mach said:

I disagree. The higher road would be to educate them. .

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you cant teach calculus to a gold fish. They don't know what the Fed is let alone what Fed policy should be. In fact 70% cant name president and vice president! Educate them???

Mach said:

I They prefer to just sell favors to big business, far easier and far more profitable.

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100% of the effort for freedom comes from the Republican Party. They are the last best hope for freedom on earth! THey sign the PLedge, propose BBA's, spending caps, shut down govt, vote against stimuls, Obamacare, et etc. Moreover, they would be 100% perfectly conservative and successful at it too if the people supported that!! Do you understand??