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Why the Working Class Is Choosing Trump and Sanders

Lafayette

Lafayette

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Here is an article from the Fiscal Times that tries to explain why two "outsiders" suddenly have had such an impact on the primaries: Why the Working Class is Choosing Trump and Sanders. (Its author, Mark Thoma, is an economist.)

Excerpt:
Donald Trump recently defended Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid:

“Every Republican wants to do a big number on Social Security, they want to do it on Medicare, they want to do it on Medicaid. And we can’t do that. And it’s not fair to the people that have been paying in for years and now all of the sudden they want to be cut.”

An opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal reflects the negative reaction to Trump’s remarks from many Republicans:

“Mr. Trump is a political harbinger here of a new strand of populist Republicanism, largely empowered by Obamacare, in which the ‘conservative’ position is to defend the existing entitlement programs from a perceived threat posed by a new-style Obama coalition of handout seekers that includes the chronically unemployed, students, immigrants, minorities and women … who typically vote Democrat.”

But is it true that our economic system redistributes substantial sums away from the middle class to “handout seekers”? Research by the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities in response to Mitt Romney’s claim during his presidential campaign that many recipients of government help are undeserving found that 91 cents of every dollar spent on entitlement programs goes to “ the elderly (people 65 and over), the seriously disabled, and members of working households.”

And 7 of the remaining 9 cents goes to “medical care, unemployment insurance benefits (which individuals must have a significant work history to receive), Social Security survivor benefits for the children and spouses of deceased workers, and Social Security benefits for retirees between ages 62 and 64.”

Looking at this another way, the CBPP also finds that middle class households are 60 percent of the US population, and they receive 58 percent of the benefits from entitlement programs. There is some redistribution, but it is from the top 20 percent of households to the bottom 20 percent.
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What do you think ... ?
 
You have a working class on the right whose jobs have been decimated by outsourcing and technology, along with an influx in the labor market from a variety of sources including Mexican labor. Trump is tapping into that.

On the flip side, you have generations of Americans now who either can't go on to higher education because of the costs (decreasing their job prospects and limiting their life-time incomes) or did manage to graduate but are held back by astronomical student loan debt that is preventing them from putting money into savings, investing, home ownership, discretionary spending, etc. And you have a party establishment on both sides, generally older, who already have college degrees and no student loan debt, already have nest eggs, already have generous benefits packages and healthcare, retirement plans, etc. And the disconnect between them and the average American is widening as the years go on.

These are issues that threaten to rip apart both parties, and issues that as a nation we have to address.
 
And another timely message: The Use of Political Stunts to Attack Social Programs

From the "Horse's Mouth", if you like - Gwen Moore, the author, is a congresswoman representing Wisconsins 4th district.

Extract:
“Both Congresswoman Lee and I were once recipients of the very social services that are currently being targeted by our Republican colleagues,” said Congresswoman Moore. “Our distinct perspectives and firsthand experiences with these vital public assistance programs add unique and empathetic voices to a debate overpowered by crass sentiments and hostile attitudes. With 46.7 million Americans battling poverty, we should be able to engage in an open debate about these life-saving programs in the light of day, not behind closed doors or with the help of political stunts.”
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Were this about DoD-expenditures, the Replicants would "bump it with a trumpet" ...
 
akrunner88 said:
You have a working class on the right whose jobs have been decimated by outsourcing and technology, along with an influx in the labor market from a variety of sources including Mexican labor..
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I figure these come from the Center-right. The center of American politics is much larger than anyone thinks. They can swing Left (to the Dems) or Right (to the Replicants) and is somewhat volatile. Trump is a very vociferous candidate, the loud-mouth "All-American Guy". Which is why he is so attractive to many.

But, "vote for the jerk"? I suspect most of his present followers would think twice before doing so. Trump is all blather at the moment, and has shown nothing in terms of policy-details that would indicate how he would "presidentate". (Frankly, he is having so much fun that I doubt he has given that challenge even a nanosecond of thought.)

And another thing: Perhaps understated in Civics Class, "it takes three to tango" in American governance - the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary. We have seen how "packing the Supremes" can affect, for instance, how presidential elections are aberrantly funded in the US. And how handing the HofR over to the Replicants cut off Obama's you-know-what's by halting all Stimulus Spending in the name of an inanity called "Budgeting Austerity" - which was not the least bit necessary as Uncle Sam wound down all by himself his debt-overhang. But it did extend by an extra two-years the inevitably slow crawl-out from the Great Recession.

There is no one "solution" to the problem of American governance. It is a delicately intricate instrument that has been tinkered with and needs fixing ...
 
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Lafayette said:
I figure these come from the Center-right. The center of American politics is much larger than anyone thinks. They can swing Left (to the Dems) or Right (to the Replicants) and is somewhat volatile. Trump is a very vociferous candidate, the loud-mouth "All-American Guy". Which is why he is so attractive to many.

But, "vote for the jerk"? I suspect most of his present followers would think twice before doing so. Trump is all blather at the moment, and has shown nothing in terms of policy-details that would indicate how he would "presidentate". (Frankly, he is having so much fun that I doubt he has given that challenge even a nanosecond of thought.)

And another thing: Perhaps understated in Civics Class, "it takes three to tango" in American governance - the Legislature, the Executive and the Judiciary. We have seen how "packing the Supremes" can affect, for instance, how presidential elections are aberrantly funded in the US. And how handing the HofR over to the Replicants cut off Obama's you-know-what's by halting all Stimulus Spending in the name of an inanity called "Budgeting Austerity" - which was not the least bit necessary as Uncle Sam wound down all by himself his debt-overhang. But it did extend by an extra two-years the inevitably slow crawl-out from the Great Recession.

There is no one "solution" to the problem of American governance. It is a delicately intricate instrument that has been tinkered with and needs fixing ...
Click to expand...

You need real adults in government to take on real problems, and come up with working solutions. You also have to consider the average American voter into the equation, who are largely the dumbest people on the planet when it comes to civics, and voting.

It ain't happening anytime soon.
 
akrunner88 said:
You have a working class on the right whose jobs have been decimated by outsourcing and technology, along with an influx in the labor market from a variety of sources including Mexican labor. Trump is tapping into that.

On the flip side, you have generations of Americans now who either can't go on to higher education because of the costs (decreasing their job prospects and limiting their life-time incomes) or did manage to graduate but are held back by astronomical student loan debt that is preventing them from putting money into savings, investing, home ownership, discretionary spending, etc. And you have a party establishment on both sides, generally older, who already have college degrees and no student loan debt, already have nest eggs, already have generous benefits packages and healthcare, retirement plans, etc. And the disconnect between them and the average American is widening as the years go on.

These are issues that threaten to rip apart both parties, and issues that as a nation we have to address.
Click to expand...
Pretty much sums it up. Good post.
 
RetiredUSN said:
You need real adults in government to take on real problems, and come up with working solutions. You also have to consider the average American voter into the equation, who are largely the dumbest people on the planet when it comes to civics, and voting.
Click to expand...

For once, we have something to agree upon.

Americans must understand what is meant by Civic Duty (voting in elections), and what are the consequences of Not Voting. (Because they are living those consequences presently.)

We get all hot-'n-bothered over presidential elections, and forget the mid-terms - where the most damage to a presidency can be done.

What's a PotUS who can't specify a spending budget and get it passed in Congress?

A eunuch ...
 
SS and MC/MA aren't travesties.

Some Liberals would like to change them into a disaster (remove cap, turning it into hardcore wealth redistribution)
Some Conservatives like to talk about doing away with them (creating a mess where we'd need something like...oh, SS/MC/MA to fix...brilliant)

SS, MC/MA should be improved. I mean, SS pays out for ****, as discussed in another thread, so poor are the returns that many federal, state, and local government employees get to opt out, and opt in to their own plans that typically pay MUCH better returns for their investment.

But this is a quantity issue, not quality.

The fact that government controls them is a big issue too, but we're not great at identifying exactly how to peel something out of government, return it to the public/people,without liberals freaking out that it's privatized!! oh no!, or conservatives "its a money pile, grab it!"
 
RetiredUSN said:
You need real adults in government to take on real problems, and come up with working solutions. You also have to consider the average American voter into the equation, who are largely the dumbest people on the planet when it comes to civics, and voting.It ain't happening anytime soon.
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Not so sure I agree.

Contrast government to our larger, private economy, and all the goods and services we all buy and use every single day? That's far larger, and more complex, than governments functions to us, yet somehow these idiot-masses as you put it, manage to navigate a TV without knowing how it works, a PC without knowing how it works, the internet that no one knows how it works (kidding), doctors, amazon, complex trade law, etc., etc. Real adults taking on real problems, every single day.

Somehow we manage all that in what appears to be a pretty good way. Why would government require something more than that? It doesn't.

It's politics. Politics ensures that no matter how good your argument, no matter how good your evidence, on most large scope issues, anyone can just come in, take the opposite position, be confident about it, attack the strengths of the opposition argument as though they were absurd weaknesses, and it works. You can get 50/50 agree/disagree when it matters, and there you have democrats and republicans.

If government requires its citizens to have a PhD in government, it's a failed system. But notice even if that absurdity were true, it STILL FAILS. We have countless well educated, experienced adults who manage things that utterly and completely fail. That's how reality works. Greenspan knew a thing or two, he claims he was wrong...surely he met criteria for being an adult that can take on real problems.
Private markets decentralize the system, allowing failures to typically be localized to the bad stuff, and success to empower the good stuff, and competition to keep everyone in check. This is really not that much different than how you would design a network I assume. A centrally controlled network that doesn't delegate, I don't even know if we CAN design it, it's so complex, and it would be absurdly inefficient, and entirely vulnerable to catastrophic failure. Sound familiar?
 
Lafayette said:
I gather you've made an in-depth study of the subject matter?
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Yeah, bridgeport local schoools versus fairfield schools in Connecticut.

Its no particular secret that those towards the bottom have much less education and educational opportunities than those towards the top. As such, those on the bottom tend to be more uneducated.
 
Luftwaffe said:
The working class is typically made up of peasants, uneducated peasants. Not all, but a good amount.
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How do you define "peasants", "working class" and "uneducated"?

Most all my friends are members of the "working class". Most of my friends have at least some college if not a bachelors or advanced degree. I wouldn't personally define any of my friends as "peasants".

You must be using different definitions than I do.
 
imagep said:
How do you define "peasants", "working class" and "uneducated"?

Most all my friends are members of the "working class". Most of my friends have at least some college if not a bachelors or advanced degree. I wouldn't personally define any of my friends as "peasants".

You must be using different definitions than I do.
Click to expand...

Although working class encompasses middle class working peeps and upper middle class peeps (and perhaps even some low end rich people), I typically use working class and poor class interchangeably.

Peasants refers to people who dont receive an adequate education.

Of course, that's so hilariously vague... My issue with defining it as simply no college and college is that there are some ****ball colleges out there. Not only that, but some people go to decent colleges, but then take ****ty degrees not worth more than the paper they are made of.
 
Lafayette said:
Here is an article from the Fiscal Times that tries to explain why two "outsiders" suddenly have had such an impact on the primaries: Why the Working Class is Choosing Trump and Sanders. (Its author, Mark Thoma, is an economist.)

Excerpt:

What do you think ... ?
Click to expand...

I Think Trump is a snake oil salesman that has no actual plans on how to accomplish anything he has promised.
and
I Think Bernie is a Socialist that would Tax and Spend this Nation deeper into debt and kill any future possible gains in economic growth.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Although working class encompasses middle class working peeps and upper middle class peeps (and perhaps even some low end rich people), I typically use working class and poor class interchangeably.

Peasants refers to people who dont receive an adequate education.

Of course, that's so hilariously vague... My issue with defining it as simply no college and college is that there are some ****ball colleges out there. Not only that, but some people go to decent colleges, but then take ****ty degrees not worth more than the paper they are made of.
Click to expand...

OK. That's just not how I would define it.

I pretty much see our classes as the poor-slackers (don't work or don't work much and have no ambition to work), the working poor (low wage but they work full time - maybe up to $30k per worker or $50k for a family), the middle class(30k-100K in income), the upper middle class (100k-500K in income), and the rich (500K+ in income and at least $5million in net worth). The two extremes I wouldn't classify as working class at all (they dontwork, or dont work full time, or dont have to work if the choose not to).
 
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akrunner88 said:
You have a working class on the right whose jobs have been decimated by outsourcing and technology, along with an influx in the labor market from a variety of sources including Mexican labor. Trump is tapping into that.

On the flip side, you have generations of Americans now who either can't go on to higher education because of the costs (decreasing their job prospects and limiting their life-time incomes) or did manage to graduate but are held back by astronomical student loan debt that is preventing them from putting money into savings, investing, home ownership, discretionary spending, etc. And you have a party establishment on both sides, generally older, who already have college degrees and no student loan debt, already have nest eggs, already have generous benefits packages and healthcare, retirement plans, etc. And the disconnect between them and the average American is widening as the years go on.

These are issues that threaten to rip apart both parties, and issues that as a nation we have to address.
Click to expand...
Nicely stated.
The average American really wants change. Some want a change that brings them back to the "good 'ol days" where a one income family could still squeak by, some want changes that make it so a working individual can still afford some luxuries without giving up healthcare or other necessities, some really would be happy to do as little as possible and get as much money as possible (sometimes this is a picture painted by the silver spoons who make it look very easy because they never really had to work at anything or want for anything giving a very tinted and unrealistic picture of the "American Dream").
Most Americans want change but few can put a finger (or a realistic finger) on what, exactly, those changes should be. So when someone comes along with promises, no matter how insane or outrageous those promises are (and few times showing a roadmap to those promises) the Average American will eat out of their hand so to speak.

Lafayette said:
For once, we have something to agree upon.
Americans must understand what is meant by Civic Duty (voting in elections), and what are the consequences of Not Voting. (Because they are living those consequences presently.)
We get all hot-'n-bothered over presidential elections, and forget the mid-terms - where the most damage to a presidency can be done.
What's a PotUS who can't specify a spending budget and get it passed in Congress?
A eunuch ...
Click to expand...
I would go a step further. It isn't only each American's duty to vote (assuming there is a viable candidate or writing in Morgan Freeman if there isn't) but also to research the people they are voting for and their platforms not just go "Oh, that sound bite sound juicy let's vote for him/her" Being knowledgeable about your Government, what it is doing and not doing (on the peripheral at the very least), is as much an individual's civic duty as it is a politicians. Those who think politicians just meet and discuss what would be best for the average American are naïve at best.

Luftwaffe said:
The working class is typically made up of peasants, uneducated peasants. Not all, but a good amount.
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Wow. Elitist much?
I don't really care how you define it because once you use archaic, insulting language I tend to tune you out anyhow.
 
Casper said:
I Think Bernie is a Socialist that would Tax and Spend this Nation deeper into debt and kill any future possible gains in economic growth.
Click to expand...

Bernie is not a Socialist:
Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and control of the means of production.
Click to expand...

He is a Social Democrat:
Social democracy is a political ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving welfare state provisions, collective bargaining arrangements, regulation of the economy in the general interest, etc.
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Know the difference - principally, that a social-democrat has no fear of a capitalist market-economy. (The only alternative of which is "barter", which would be idiocy.) It adherents are more concerned about Income Disparity, that is, how the pie is shared.

So, yes, with a flat-tax of only 30% on upper-incomes, the first action of a Social Democrat PotUS (along with an act of Congress*) is to fix that anomaly - with Progressive Taxation ...

*Which is why, with both chambers of Congress in the hands of the Replicants, nothing will happen until at least the HofR changes. The will of 36% of the electorate that last voted in the midterms reigns.
 
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Lafayette said:
Bernie is not a Socialist:

He is a Social Democrat:

Know the difference - principally, that a social-democrat has no fear of a capitalist market-economy. (The only alternative of which is "barter", which would be idiocy.) It adherents are more concerned about Income Disparity, that is, how the pie is shared.

So, yes, with a flat-tax of only 30% on upper-incomes, the first action of a Social Democrat PotUS (along with an act of Congress*) is to fix that anomaly - with Progressive Taxation ...

*Which is why, with both chambers of Congress in the hands of the Replicants, nothing will happen until at least the HofR changes. The will of 36% of the electorate that last voted in the midterms reigns.
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He takes redistribution to a level never seen before in this Nation, making him as close to a true Socialist as there is here.

As for a Flat Tax neither side wants it, nor do they want a Consumption Tax, they Like the current Corrupt System, so no matter who has the House that will not be changing any time soon.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Its no particular secret that those towards the bottom have much less education and educational opportunities than those towards the top. As such, those on the bottom tend to be more uneducated.
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Agreed. But the difference is that at the bottom, where it is needed most, is where any change must start.

In fact, about 81% of High School students obtain a diploma, so I don't think that is the real issue - providing we shunt the other 19% into a vocational training school.

And said schooling should be available throughout one's life, because the rate at which the nature of jobs change is bound to accelerate ...
 
imagep said:
Most of my friends have at least some college if not a bachelors or advanced degree. You must be using different definitions than I do.
Click to expand...

Word games.

Moving right along ...
 
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