Some Facts (for a change) About the TPP

There has been so much ignorance about the TPP, not to mention deliberate misinformation spread by opponents. Here are some useful correctives.

• On trade, stick to facts By Charles Lane

"In Greek mythology, Sisyphus paid for his sins by being compelled to push a boulder up a steep hill, only to have it roll back down, over and over again.

If the gods had really wanted to frustrate him, though, they would have assigned Sisyphus to fact-check the misinformation opponents of the Trans-Pacific Partnership are spreading in their desperate effort to block that manifestly beneficial free-trade agreement between the United States and 11 other countries. . . .


". . . An accurate description of TPP might go something like this: “The vast majority of trade affected by the deal would be between the United States and countries that are either high-wage developed nations, or moderate-income emerging economies. The deal would enhance the free-trade pacts the United States already has with some countries in both categories. Any modest risk to U.S. jobs from increased Vietnamese and Malaysian imports would be offset, at least in part, by improved U.S. access to their markets, and to that of Japan. TPP is about not only economics but also the geopolitical benefits of making already close ties between the United States and this strategic region even closer.”. . . "

Jack Hays said:

There has been so much ignorance about the TPP, not to mention deliberate misinformation spread by opponents. Here are some useful correctives.

• On trade, stick to facts By Charles Lane

"In Greek mythology, Sisyphus paid for his sins by being compelled to push a boulder up a steep hill, only to have it roll back down, over and over again.

If the gods had really wanted to frustrate him, though, they would have assigned Sisyphus to fact-check the misinformation opponents of the Trans-Pacific Partnership are spreading in their desperate effort to block that manifestly beneficial free-trade agreement between the United States and 11 other countries. . . .


". . . An accurate description of TPP might go something like this: “The vast majority of trade affected by the deal would be between the United States and countries that are either high-wage developed nations, or moderate-income emerging economies. The deal would enhance the free-trade pacts the United States already has with some countries in both categories. Any modest risk to U.S. jobs from increased Vietnamese and Malaysian imports would be offset, at least in part, by improved U.S. access to their markets, and to that of Japan. TPP is about not only economics but also the geopolitical benefits of making already close ties between the United States and this strategic region even closer.”. . . "

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So those with their lips wrapped around the cocks of big Business are trying to have jobs shipped from Japan, Australia and other "high" and moderate wage nations?And that somehow those who don't want their jobs shipped over seas are just paranoid?

jamesrage said:

So those with their lips wrapped around the cocks of big Business are trying to have jobs shipped from Japan, Australia and other "high" and moderate wage nations?And that somehow those who don't want their jobs shipped over seas are just paranoid?

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". . . The three TPP countries with higher minimum wages than the United States are Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

In a fourth, Japan, the minimum wage is worth only about a dollar per hour less than that of the United States, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Japanese wages generally, however, are some of the highest in the world, especially in industries that actually export to the United States. To the extent it promotes U.S. market access to Japan, as it will, TPP is anything but a race to the bottom for U.S. producers.
These four high-wage nations — Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand — accounted for 56 percent of all goods traded with the United States in the TPP area during 2014, according to U.S. International Trade Commission data.
Lower-wage Mexico, Peru and Chile account for roughly 36 percent of TPP-area goods traded — yet the United States already has free-trade agreements with them, so they represent zero new low-wage competition for U.S. workers. The United States has trade surpluses with Peru and Chile, by the way. . . ."

Jack Hays said:

". . . The three TPP countries with higher minimum wages than the United States are Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

In a fourth, Japan, the minimum wage is worth only about a dollar per hour less than that of the United States, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Japanese wages generally, however, are some of the highest in the world, especially in industries that actually export to the United States. To the extent it promotes U.S. market access to Japan, as it will, TPP is anything but a race to the bottom for U.S. producers.
These four high-wage nations — Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand — accounted for 56 percent of all goods traded with the United States in the TPP area during 2014, according to U.S. International Trade Commission data.
Lower-wage Mexico, Peru and Chile account for roughly 36 percent of TPP-area goods traded — yet the United States already has free-trade agreements with them, so they represent zero new low-wage competition for U.S. workers. The United States has trade surpluses with Peru and Chile, by the way. . . ."

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While there is zero wage competition with Japan,Canada,Australia and New Zealand there is with the other nations in the TPP .Those with their lips firmly wrapped around the cocks of business owners would love to see jobs shipped to to those other countries in order to line their pockets with more money.

jamesrage said:

While there is zero wage competition with Japan,Canada,Australia and New Zealand there is with the other nations in the TPP .Those with their lips firmly wrapped around the cocks of business owners would love to see jobs shipped to to those other countries in order to line their pockets with more money.

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Apparently it was too much trouble for you to read the rest of the article.

Jack Hays said:

Apparently it was too much trouble for you to read the rest of the article.

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The claim that oh it isn't as bad as they say it is by someone trying to promote shipping more jobs overseas while claiming that tread deals should somehow not be secret?

jamesrage said:

The claim that oh it isn't as bad as they say it is by someone trying to promote shipping more jobs overseas while claiming that tread deals should somehow not be secret?

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All treaty negotiations, including trade agreements, are confidential while they are being negotiated. And no trade agreement ships jobs overseas. Jobs lost would have been lost anyway; the agreements just give us a chance to replace them with other jobs.

Jack Hays said:

All treaty negotiations, including trade agreements, are confidential while they are being negotiated..

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They should never be secret seeing how it is the people's business what they are doing in these negotiations. The only reason for keeping such meetings secret is because they do not want the people knowing whats going on until it is too late.

And no trade agreement ships jobs overseas.

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Either you are a liar or just ignorant.Lots of jobs shipped overseas to China and other countries as a result of these trade deals.

Jobs lost would have been lost anyway;

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Funny how many jobs just stayed here in the US until anti-American politicians made it more profitable to ship jobs overseas.

the agreements just give us a chance to replace them with other jobs

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So the Chinese, Indians and other people gave us equal or better jobs for the ones that were outsourced to them?So many towns across America did not suffer because of outsourcing?All those people who lost their decent paying factory jobs now have better jobs?**** no they do not have better jobs.

**** any more trade deals. if they want free trade, they need to be subject to OSHA and the same pollution controls and regulations that our own businesses have to abide by. the average worker gets nothing but ****ed by these deals. very disappointed in Obama for pushing this, but i already knew that he was a corporatist, so it's not a huge surprise.

there's some opposition to it now, but it will pass. this is because both parties suck. they split the country and get us to hate each other, and then they unite like superfriends whenever someone waves a dollar bill in their faces. and after it passes, workers will get ****ed again like they always do.

Helix said:

**** any more trade deals. if they want free trade, they need to be subject to OSHA and the same pollution controls and regulations that our own businesses have to abide by. the average worker gets nothing but ****ed by these deals. very disappointed in Obama for pushing this, but i already knew that he was a corporatist, so it's not a huge surprise.

there's some opposition to it now, but it will pass. this is because both parties suck. they split the country and get us to hate each other, and then they unite like superfriends whenever someone waves a dollar bill in their faces. and after it passes, workers will get ****ed again like they always do.

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Some parties to the TPP have wages and worker benefits/protections superior to ours.

jamesrage said:

They should never be secret seeing how it is the people's business what they are doing in these negotiations. The only reason for keeping such meetings secret is because they do not want the people knowing whats going on until it is too late.



Either you are a liar or just ignorant.Lots of jobs shipped overseas to China and other countries as a result of these trade deals.



Funny how many jobs just stayed here in the US until anti-American politicians made it more profitable to ship jobs overseas.




So the Chinese, Indians and other people gave us equal or better jobs for the ones that were outsourced to them?So many towns across America did not suffer because of outsourcing?All those people who lost their decent paying factory jobs now have better jobs?**** no they do not have better jobs.

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The lost jobs were doomed anyway, agreements or no agreements. The US enjoyed an artificially lush economic environment 1945-75. The end of that environment had nothing to do with trade agreements.

Jack Hays said:

Some parties to the TPP have wages and worker benefits/protections superior to ours.

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i'm sure that the average worker will reap great prosperity from this free trade agreement.

Helix said:

i'm sure that the average worker will reap great prosperity from this free trade agreement.

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Workers in the aggregate should benefit. Individually there will be winners & losers.

I have a question.....

The last I read about this latest trade deal, it was being kept secret from the people. There is a room where Congress persons can read the proposed deal but it isn't being made privy to the American people. Why?

I don't like things done with no transparency and I don't think I am alone.

vesper said:

I have a question.....

The last I read about this latest trade deal, it was being kept secret from the people. There is a room where Congress persons can read the proposed deal but it isn't being made privy to the American people. Why?

I don't like things done with no transparency and I don't think I am alone.

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All treaty drafts are confidential while negotiations are under way. This one is just like all the others.

Jack Hays said:

All treaty drafts are confidential while negotiations are under way. This one is just like all the others.

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But is it trade or treaty?
I am reading it is a trade deal. Unlike treaties, trade agreements affect U.S. law regarding foreign commerce, which Congress regulates, thus requiring legislation to implement. And that legislation being offered should be made known to the people. Right?

vesper said:

But is it trade or treaty?
I am reading it is a trade deal. Unlike treaties, trade agreements affect U.S. law regarding foreign commerce, which Congress regulates, thus requiring legislation to implement. And that legislation being offered should be made known to the people. Right?

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After the treaty provisions are presented.

vesper said:

I have a question.....

The last I read about this latest trade deal, it was being kept secret from the people. There is a room where Congress persons can read the proposed deal but it isn't being made privy to the American people. Why?

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because it's a pile of **** that will mostly benefit those who purchased it at the expense of the middle class, just like pretty much every other trade deal.

Helix said:

because it's a pile of **** that will mostly benefit those who purchased it at the expense of the middle class, just like pretty much every other trade deal.

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All treaty drafts are confidential until negotiations are concluded.

vesper said:

I have a question.....

The last I read about this latest trade deal, it was being kept secret from the people. There is a room where Congress persons can read the proposed deal but it isn't being made privy to the American people. Why?

I don't like things done with no transparency and I don't think I am alone.

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Greetings, Vesper. :2wave:

You're not alone in wondering what's going on, except that certain people don't agree with it. It just seems peculiar that the criticism has started between Senator Warren, and others who have read the thing, versus Obama, and the public has little or no idea what the problem is and why it's disliked, especially since they are all Democrats! :shock: Then Obama got on TV and stated that Warren was wrong! Wrong about what? :argue: It may have been better if nothing had been said by either of them until the public had been given the opportunity to read it!

Jack Hays said:

All treaty drafts are confidential until negotiations are concluded.

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yeah. wouldn't want to stir up the plebes before the candy coating on the turd has solidified.

Helix said:

yeah. wouldn't want to stir up the plebes before the final candy coating on the turd has solidified.

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That has been the case throughout our history, and it is the same virtually everywhere. Negotiators need the flexibility that comes with being out of the public eye.

Jack Hays said:

That has been the case throughout our history, and it is the same virtually everywhere. Negotiators need the flexibility that comes with being out of the public eye.

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they sure do. otherwise, how can they deliver the promised prosperity to the masses?

Lucy, hold that football steady for us.

Helix said:

they sure do. otherwise, how can they deliver the promised prosperity to the masses?

Lucy, hold that football steady for us.

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So . . . Are you a conspiracy theorist?

Secret Corporate Courts can change our laws
"There’s an international awakening afoot about a radical expansion of corporate power—one that sits at the center of two historic global trade deals nearing completion. One focuses the United States toward Europe—that’s the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP)—and the other toward Asia, in the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Both would establish broad new rights for foreign corporations to sue governments for vast sums whenever nations change their public policies in ways that could potentially impact corporate profits. These cases would not be handled by domestic courts, with their relative transparency, but in special, secretive international tribunals. It’s a stupendously powerful tool and a double win for the corporations: It’s a money machine that loots public treasuries and a potent tool to stifle unwelcome regulations, all wrapped in one. As Senator Elizabeth Warren recently wrote in the Washington Post, “Giving foreign corporations special rights to challenge our laws outside of our legal system would be a bad deal.” But it’s a deal US lawmakers are rapidly preparing to make as they debate extending “fast-track” trade promotion authority to President Barack Obama..."
The Case That Blew the Lid Off the World Bank

"Branded as a “trade deal” by its corporate proponents, the TPP would actually establish new corporate rights to undermine environmental and health laws, offshore millions of American jobs, flood the US with untested food products, and extend the duration of medical patents. Its expansive non-trade provisions would impose constraints on government regulation of financial firms and food safety. As the Huffington Post’s Zach Carter reported, the TPP would even ban the widely popular “Buy America” procurement policy..."
Stop the Trans-Pacific Partnership | The Nation

"Last week, Wikileaks released the “Investment Chapter” of the Trans-Pacific Partnership and what it revealed was scary and surprising. The leak revealed plans to create a supranational tribunal where foreign corporations can sue governments for “expected future profits.” We already know the consequences of these tribunals. In 2012, a Swedish company sued Germany for phasing out nuclear power, and the cigarette manufacturer Philip Morris is currently suing Uruguay and Australia for laws that aim to curb smoking.."
Should Philip Morris Be Able to Sue Governments That Try to Curb Smoking? | The Nation