View Poll Results: Which concepts do you disagree with?

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  • Other people's money

    2 33.33%
  • Unintended consequences

    2 33.33%
  • Individual foresight

    2 33.33%
  • Entrepreneurship

    1 16.67%
  • Heterogeneous activity

    1 16.67%
  • Market redistribution

    2 33.33%
  • The interests of consumers

    2 33.33%
  • Dollar voting

    3 50.00%
  • Foot voting

    1 16.67%
  • Moral value

    4 66.67%
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Thread: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

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    Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    A few people here disagree with libertarian economics. So I thought I'd create a survey to see exactly which economic concepts people disagree with. There are quite a few concepts so I had to split the survey into two parts. This is the second part.

    Make sure you base your survey responses on the descriptions of the concept rather than on the label.

    Other people's money...


    There are four ways to spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why you really watch out for what you're doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well then, I'm not so careful about the content of the present, but I'm very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else's money on myself. And if I spend somebody else's money on myself, then I'm going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else's money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else's money on somebody else, I'm not concerned about how much it costs, and I'm not concerned about what I get. And that's government. And that's close to 40 percent of our national income. - Milton Friedman, The 4 Ways to Spend Money

    Unintended consequences...

    Yet this difference is tremendous; for it almost always happens that when the immediate consequence is favorable, the later consequences are disastrous, and vice versa. Whence it follows that the bad economist pursues a small present good that will be followed by a great evil to come, while the good economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil. - Bastiat, The Seen vs the Unseen

    Individual foresight...

    The resource status of material objects is therefore always problematical and depends to some extent on foresight. An object constitutes wealth only if it is a source of an income stream. The value of the object to the owner, actual or potential, reflects at any moment its expected income-yielding capacity. This, in its turn, will depend on the uses to which the object can be turned. The mere ownership of objects, therefore, does not necessarily confer wealth; it is their successful use which confers it. Not ownership but use of resources is the source of income and wealth. An ice-cream factory in New York may mean wealth to its owner; the same ice-cream factory in Greenland would scarcely be a resource. - Lachmann, The Market Economy and the Distribution of Wealth

    Entrepreneurship...

    Entrepreneurship is necessary in economic development, therefore, for the quite pedestrian purpose of ensuring a tendency towards the adoption of the socially advantageous long-term capital-using opportunities available. So far from being a kind of exogenous push given to the economy, entrepreneurial innovation is the grasping of opportunities that have somehow escaped notice. - Kirzner, Entrepreneurship & the Market Approach to Development

    Heterogeneous activity...

    So far as this is the case, it is evident that government, by excluding or even by superseding individual agency, either substitutes a less qualified instrumentality for one better qualified, or at any rate substitutes its own mode of accomplishing the work, for all the variety of modes which would be tried by a number of equally qualified persons aiming at the same end; a competition by many degrees more propitious to the progress of improvement than any uniformity of system. - J.S. Mill, Principles of Political Economy with some of their Applications to Social Philosophy

    Market redistribution...

    These economic facts have certain social consequences. As the critics of the market economy nowadays prefer to take their stand on “social” grounds, it may be not inappropriate here to elucidate the true social results of the market process. We have already spoken of it as a leveling process. More aptly, we may now describe these results as an instance of what Pareto called “the circulation of elites.” Wealth is unlikely to stay for long in the same hands. It passes from hand to hand as unforeseen change confers value, now on this, now on that specific resource, engendering capital gains and losses. The owners of wealth, we might say with Schumpeter, are like the guests at a hotel or the passengers in a train: They are always there but are never for long the same people. - Lachmann, The Market Economy and the Distribution of Wealth

    The interests of consumers...

    Treat all economic questions from the viewpoint of the consumer, for the interests of the consumer are the interests of the human race. - Bastiat, Abundance and Scarcity

    Dollar voting...

    The capitalist society is a democracy in which every penny represents a ballot paper. - Mises

    Foot voting...

    The second broad principle is that government power must be dispersed. If government is to exercise power, better in the county than in the state, better in the state than in Washington. If I do not like what my local community does, be it in sewage disposal, or zoning, or schools, I can move to another local community, and though few may take this step, the mere possibility acts as a check. If I do not like what Washington imposes, I have few alternatives in this world of jealous nations. - Milton Friedman, Capitalism and Freedom

    Moral value...

    Only where we ourselves are responsible for our own interests and are free to sacrifice them has our decision moral value. We are neither entitled to be unselfish at someone else's expense nor is there any merit in being unselfish if we have no choice. The members of a society who in all respects are made to do the good thing have no title to praise. - Hayek

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Here's the link to Part 1 ... (Libertarian Economics - Part 1)

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerographica View Post
    A few people here disagree with libertarian economics. So I thought I'd create a survey to see exactly which economic concepts people disagree with. There are quite a few concepts so I had to split the survey into two parts. This is the second part.

    Make sure you base your survey responses on the descriptions of the concept rather than on the label.

    Other people's money...
    Fail from the getgo again.

    Take accounting and economics 101, not Austrianism 101. One teaches you functionality, the other teaches you ideology.,

    Stop being a religious tool and learn.
    My blog, where I talk latest news on economics and some other issues.

    http://hereticaldruthers.wordpress.com/

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Hochbaum View Post
    Fail from the getgo again.

    Take accounting and economics 101, not Austrianism 101. One teaches you functionality, the other teaches you ideology.,

    Stop being a religious tool and learn.
    Milton Friedman was not an Austrian.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Hochbaum View Post
    Fail from the getgo again.

    Take accounting and economics 101, not Austrianism 101. One teaches you functionality, the other teaches you ideology.,

    Stop being a religious tool and learn.
    Not only should people not be treated as numbers, they don't act like them either.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    Milton Friedman was not an Austrian.
    Typical response. He is not a=Austrian, or libertarian or Chicago school. Either way he was not a reputable economist.
    My blog, where I talk latest news on economics and some other issues.

    http://hereticaldruthers.wordpress.com/

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Hochbaum View Post
    Typical response. He is not a=Austrian, or libertarian or Chicago school. Either way he was not a reputable economist.
    Milton Friedman was not reputable. Ok then.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerographica View Post
    A few people here disagree with libertarian economics. So I thought I'd create a survey to see exactly which economic concepts people disagree with. There are quite a few concepts so I had to split the survey into two parts. This is the second part.

    Make sure you base your survey responses on the descriptions of the concept rather than on the label.

    Other people's money...


    There are four ways to spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why you really watch out for what you're doing, and you try to get the most for your money. Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well then, I'm not so careful about the content of the present, but I'm very careful about the cost. Then, I can spend somebody else's money on myself. And if I spend somebody else's money on myself, then I'm going to have a good lunch! Finally, I can spend somebody else's money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else's money on somebody else, I'm not concerned about how much it costs, and I'm not concerned about what I get. And that's government. And that's close to 40 percent of our national income. - Milton Friedman, The 4 Ways to Spend Money

    Unintended consequences...

    Yet this difference is tremendous; for it almost always happens that when the immediate consequence is favorable, the later consequences are disastrous, and vice versa. Whence it follows that the bad economist pursues a small present good that will be followed by a great evil to come, while the good economist pursues a great good to come, at the risk of a small present evil. - Bastiat, The Seen vs the Unseen

    Individual foresight...

    The resource status of material objects is therefore always problematical and depends to some extent on foresight. An object constitutes wealth only if it is a source of an income stream. The value of the object to the owner, actual or potential, reflects at any moment its expected income-yielding capacity. This, in its turn, will depend on the uses to which the object can be turned. The mere ownership of objects, therefore, does not necessarily confer wealth; it is their successful use which confers it. Not ownership but use of resources is the source of income and wealth. An ice-cream factory in New York may mean wealth to its owner; the same ice-cream factory in Greenland would scarcely be a resource. - Lachmann, The Market Economy and the Distribution of Wealth

    Entrepreneurship...

    Entrepreneurship is necessary in economic development, therefore, for the quite pedestrian purpose of ensuring a tendency towards the adoption of the socially advantageous long-term capital-using opportunities available. So far from being a kind of exogenous push given to the economy, entrepreneurial innovation is the grasping of opportunities that have somehow escaped notice. - Kirzner, Entrepreneurship & the Market Approach to Development

    Heterogeneous activity...

    So far as this is the case, it is evident that government, by excluding or even by superseding individual agency, either substitutes a less qualified instrumentality for one better qualified, or at any rate substitutes its own mode of accomplishing the work, for all the variety of modes which would be tried by a number of equally qualified persons aiming at the same end; a competition by many degrees more propitious to the progress of improvement than any uniformity of system. - J.S. Mill, Principles of Political Economy with some of their Applications to Social Philosophy

    Market redistribution...

    These economic facts have certain social consequences. As the critics of the market economy nowadays prefer to take their stand on “social” grounds, it may be not inappropriate here to elucidate the true social results of the market process. We have already spoken of it as a leveling process. More aptly, we may now describe these results as an instance of what Pareto called “the circulation of elites.” Wealth is unlikely to stay for long in the same hands. It passes from hand to hand as unforeseen change confers value, now on this, now on that specific resource, engendering capital gains and losses. The owners of wealth, we might say with Schumpeter, are like the guests at a hotel or the passengers in a train: They are always there but are never for long the same people. - Lachmann, The Market Economy and the Distribution of Wealth

    The interests of consumers...

    Treat all economic questions from the viewpoint of the consumer, for the interests of the consumer are the interests of the human race. - Bastiat, Abundance and Scarcity

    Dollar voting...

    The capitalist society is a democracy in which every penny represents a ballot paper. - Mises

    Foot voting...

    The second broad principle is that government power must be dispersed. If government is to exercise power, better in the county than in the state, better in the state than in Washington. If I do not like what my local community does, be it in sewage disposal, or zoning, or schools, I can move to another local community, and though few may take this step, the mere possibility acts as a check. If I do not like what Washington imposes, I have few alternatives in this world of jealous nations. - Milton Friedman, Capitalism and Freedom

    Moral value...

    Only where we ourselves are responsible for our own interests and are free to sacrifice them has our decision moral value. We are neither entitled to be unselfish at someone else's expense nor is there any merit in being unselfish if we have no choice. The members of a society who in all respects are made to do the good thing have no title to praise. - Hayek
    If I had to choose it would be "Moral Value", not because I disbelieve in it, but because the value does not respond to the nature of capitalism as it exists presently in our society. If the value was a sincere response to our world and its economic realities, I might agree with it.

    Generally speaking, our economy is increasingly global, with only small stretches circumscribed to the domestic sphere. The system is characterized by arrangements that are manipulated by governments across the world on behalf special (monied) interests. "Freedom" has nothing to do with a large number of them, only the mutually beneficial fulfillment of strategic goals on behalf of special interests and against the advantage of others, including the middle class, who are ironically financing this system of their own economic destruction via tax dollars.

    A good example would be the historical trade agreements between Canada and the United States regarding the consumption of medical products. Canada's socialized medical care system provides pharmaceuticals to its population at a non-profit, a serious financial advantage for Canada's middle class. Meanwhile, the American government brokered trade agreements with the Canadian government on behalf of the American pharmaceuticals (in this case the monied interests) to increase exports by 153% -- sure, it isn't as profitable as the American market due to medicine's socialized nature, but if you acquire a lord's share of it it becomes a significant source of income.

    However, the right of ordinary American citizens to import medicine from Canada has been heavily restricted historically because it would be harmful to the domestic pharmaceuticals market.

    If the international market and its realities were truly organized according to the "Moral Value" of which you speak, then Americans would be freely able to partake of the Canadian pharmaceuticals market.

    Naturally, this would increase the price of the Canadian market, and decrease the price of the American market, which would disincentivize the Canadian government agreeing to a trade agreement at all -- after all, they could produce their own pharmaceuticals and create jobs for their own people, rather than getting them for cheap from American companies in order to finance their socialized medical care system.

    The entire international economy is propped on trade agreements like this -- the American middle class is forced to accept an unfair arrangement on behalf of the Canadian middle class and the American pharmaceuticals industry.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    The problem with libertarian economics is that they are not ever reality based, I much prefer empirical based economics. They use very special models, and libertarian economics have NEVER dealt with the Marxian internal contradictions of Capitalism, they just ignore them or theorize around them.

    Externalities are totally ignored, as is Systemic risk, as are issues such as the tendancy for the rate of profit to fall and problems of compound growth in excess capacity, and the problem of constant compound growht being impossible, and so on and so forth.

    Keynsianism treats the symptoms, Libertarian economics just pretends they don't exist.

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    Re: Libertarian Economics - Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    The problem with libertarian economics is that they are not ever reality based, I much prefer empirical based economics. They use very special models, and libertarian economics have NEVER dealt with the Marxian internal contradictions of Capitalism, they just ignore them or theorize around them.

    Externalities are totally ignored, as is Systemic risk, as are issues such as the tendancy for the rate of profit to fall and problems of compound growth in excess capacity, and the problem of constant compound growht being impossible, and so on and so forth.

    Keynsianism treats the symptoms, Libertarian economics just pretends they don't exist.
    Its strange to see a guy who identifies w as socialist supporting the liberal Keynes as he despised communism & socialism above all other systems.

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