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The USD is more valulable than gold

JP Hochbaum

JP Hochbaum

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I challenge any gold bugs to use their gold to pay: taxes, rent, mortgage, car payments, credit cards, student loans, grocery bills, utility bills, etc....

Then come back to me and tell me what happens.
 
Value and Function are 2 different things. There is a reason for currency, it has a flexibility that objects don't have. You can't pay your rent in eggs either but that doesn't mean they are without value.

When gold and silver were the frame of reference for currency, we issued gold and silver certificates. Now, our currncy is backed by imagination, not much more. That's why a 1964 quarter is worth $5.02.
 
specklebang said:
Value and Function are 2 different things. There is a reason for currency, it has a flexibility that objects don't have. You can't pay your rent in eggs either but that doesn't mean they are without value.

When gold and silver were the frame of reference for currency, we issued gold and silver certificates. Now, our currency is backed by imagination, not much more. That's why a 1964 quarter is worth $5.02.
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Utility, functionality, and convertability are vital to measuring value.

It is also not currently back by imagination. When you have a dollar you have the ability to purchase things with it. As long as we are producing things people want, the dollar has REAL value.
 
By the way Speckle, I love the first line of your sig, I may have to steal it :)
 
Of course it is imaginary. What if I don't want anything? What if my purpose is accumulation? I've saved money since 1957. I used to buy a cup of coffee in NYC for 5¢. Now I would have to pay $3.00. So, saving that nickel didn't do me a whole lot of good, did it?

Furthermore, it seems that what most people want isn't made here anyway. So the imaginary dollar goes to China to obtain the things I want to buy for, yeah, well, that dollar.

If you want to use my tagline, please pay me in gold. Thank you.

JP Hochbaum said:
Utility, functionality, and convertability are vital to measuring value.

It is also not currently back by imagination. When you have a dollar you have the ability to purchase things with it. As long as we are producing things people want, the dollar has REAL value.
Click to expand...
 
US Constitution, Section 10:

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Click to expand...

How about that?
 
specklebang said:
Of course it is imaginary. What if I don't want anything? What if my purpose is accumulation? I've saved money since 1957. I used to buy a cup of coffee in NYC for 5¢. Now I would have to pay $3.00. So, saving that nickel didn't do me a whole lot of good, did it?

Furthermore, it seems that what most people want isn't made here anyway. So the imaginary dollar goes to China to obtain the things I want to buy for, yeah, well, that dollar.

If you want to use my tagline, please pay me in gold. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Yes, if you don't want anything then money is useless, but then again, gold would be as well.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
Yes, if you don't want anything then money is useless, but then again, gold would be as well.
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If/as the dollar becomes threatened, gold goes up in value. For now. You're right, it's an arbitrary thing . . . but it's an arbitrary thing with a fabulous history. Most people buy gold as a hedge against doomsday -- at least the ones who aren't pure speculators. That's my opinion, anyhow. In a doomsday scenerio, an ounce of gold will be worth a bushful of dollars.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
Are you a STATE?
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Silly me, I should have known that this article does not concern individuals but states only. :lol:
OK, but does any state pay federal taxes and state-to-state with gold and silver coins only? May be it does, I'll be glad to know.
 
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specklebang said:
Value and Function are 2 different things. There is a reason for currency, it has a flexibility that objects don't have. You can't pay your rent in eggs either but that doesn't mean they are without value.

When gold and silver were the frame of reference for currency, we issued gold and silver certificates. Now, our currncy is backed by imagination, not much more. That's why a 1964 quarter is worth $5.02.
Click to expand...

But if you had invested that quarter in 1964 into productive investments, you would likely have far more than $5.02 today.

It really doesn't matter what the value of a quarter is, as long as you have enough in your pocket to purchase whatever it is that you need to purchase. If you want to use your quarter to purchase gold, because you value gold more than quarters, then go ahead, it makes no difference to me.
 
specklebang said:
Of course it is imaginary. What if I don't want anything? What if my purpose is accumulation?
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The point is that even if you don't want anything, you still have the potential to spend it, or invest it, or loan it for rent, so it does have value. Now if you want to prove that money has no value, then please send me all of your money, and I will announce to the world that money has no value, and my proof will be that you gave me money for free. Please message me and I will provide you with my paypal account name, you are welcome to send me as much money as you have.

I've saved money since 1957. I used to buy a cup of coffee in NYC for 5¢. Now I would have to pay $3.00. So, saving that nickel didn't do me a whole lot of good, did it?
Click to expand...

If you are just now figuring out that money is not a good long term storage of value, then you are a little on the slow side. Fiat money is not intended to be a long term storage of value. money sitting in a jar does not help our economy, so our gov purposely deflates the value of our currency, to incentivise the holders of money to invest or to loan, which is somewhat productive. If you had invested that 1957 nickel into something that is a good long term storage of value, and even a creator of wealth, you would likely have enough to purchase a cup of coffee plus a doughnut today.

Furthermore, it seems that what most people want isn't made here anyway. So the imaginary dollar goes to China to obtain the things I want to buy for, yeah, well, that dollar.
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Those silly asians. Accepting imaginary money for real goods. Thats proof right their that Asians are not nearly as smart as we tend to give them credit for being.
 
MaggieD said:
If/as the dollar becomes threatened, gold goes up in value. For now. You're right, it's an arbitrary thing . . . but it's an arbitrary thing with a fabulous history. Most people buy gold as a hedge against doomsday -- at least the ones who aren't pure speculators. That's my opinion, anyhow. In a doomsday scenerio, an ounce of gold will be worth a bushful of dollars.
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Of course the value of gold can also drop.

gold.jpg


The value of the dollar is far more stable than the value of gold. At least with the dollar, we can pretty much count on it loosing a little value most every year.
 
The question is not whether I want anything. The issue is WHEN I want something. The purpose of saving is to provide future funds.

If I bought 5¢ worth of gold in 1957, it would currently be worth $3.00. So, I could have deferred my cup of coffee instead of standing around trying to buy anything for 5¢.


JP Hochbaum said:
Yes, if you don't want anything then money is useless, but then again, gold would be as well.
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I beg to disagree.

I don't say that money has NO value. I simply said it has IMAGINARY value. Please refer to my cup of coffee example.

If money is not a long term store of value, then maybe you should send me yours instead. Certainly, you proclaim that "saving your money" is foolish. I know that you're not a fool so when I receive your remittance, I'll buy something I don't need right away.

Do you see a fallacy lurking?

As for your defense of the USG policy of destroying, oh, sorry, deflating our money, then why does the USG compete with me using artificial interest rates. I have no incentive to loan money at 1%, all risk and no reward.


imagep said:
The point is that even if you don't want anything, you still have the potential to spend it, or invest it, or loan it for rent, so it does have value. Now if you want to prove that money has no value, then please send me all of your money, and I will announce to the world that money has no value, and my proof will be that you gave me money for free. Please message me and I will provide you with my paypal account name, you are welcome to send me as much money as you have.



If you are just now figuring out that money is not a good long term storage of value, then you are a little on the slow side. Fiat money is not intended to be a long term storage of value. money sitting in a jar does not help our economy, so our gov purposely deflates the value of our currency, to incentivise the holders of money to invest or to loan, which is somewhat productive. If you had invested that 1957 nickel into something that is a good long term storage of value, and even a creator of wealth, you would likely have enough to purchase a cup of coffee plus a doughnut today.



Those silly asians. Accepting imaginary money for real goods. Thats proof right their that Asians are not nearly as smart as we tend to give them credit for being.
Click to expand...
 
specklebang said:
The question is not whether I want anything. The issue is WHEN I want something. The purpose of saving is to provide future funds.

If I bought 5¢ worth of gold in 1957, it would currently be worth $3.00. So, I could have deferred my cup of coffee instead of standing around trying to buy anything for 5¢.
Click to expand...

So don't invest your savings into a tin can. Try a savings account, cd, corporate bond, the stock market, or better yet, man up and start a business.
 
specklebang said:
I beg to disagree.

I don't say that money has NO value. I simply said it has IMAGINARY value. Please refer to my cup of coffee example.
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Whats imaginary about being able to use money to purchase something with. I suggest that the only imaginary thing is putting your money into a tin can and expecting it's value to grow, or even remain the same.

If money is not a long term store of value, then maybe you should send me yours instead.
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Aa, so you admit, money has value and you desire money.

Certainly, you proclaim that "saving your money" is foolish.
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I dont claim that saving is foolish, I claim that saving currency is foolish. Your savings should be in something that is either a long term store of value, or maybe even something that is likely to increase in value or to be productive. Money in a tin can isn't productive.

As for your defense of the USG policy of destroying, oh, sorry, deflating our money, then why does the USG compete with me using artificial interest rates. I have no incentive to loan money at 1%, all risk and no reward.
Click to expand...

1% is better than 0%. But rather than just passively lending money, maybe you should start a business.
 
May I point out that this discussion is about relative values of gold vs. currency. It has nothing to do with my personal finances.

However, just to clarify, I've been self-employed since the age of 26. I'll be turning 69 this coming Sunday. I have quite a lot of money as well as gold, silver and real estate. I'm at an age where I'm not very ambitious nor am I concerned about money. That doesn't mean I agree with the USGs destruction of the dollar. Nor is it fair to assume that everyone can just open a business just like that.



imagep said:
Whats imaginary about being able to use money to purchase something with. I suggest that the only imaginary thing is putting your money into a tin can and expecting it's value to grow, or even remain the same.



Aa, so you admit, money has value and you desire money.



I dont claim that saving is foolish, I claim that saving currency is foolish. Your savings should be in something that is either a long term store of value, or maybe even something that is likely to increase in value or to be productive. Money in a tin can isn't productive.



1% is better than 0%. But rather than just passively lending money, maybe you should start a business.
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You would pay the less valuable currency and keep the more valuable bullion. And that is what happens. Fail to see the point of this thread.
 
Canell said:
US Constitution, Section 10:



How about that?
Click to expand...


No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

________________

Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power ... To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Explain to us all how one "regulates the value of gold or silver" if you are forced to make money out of gold and silver?
 
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Matt Foley said:
Explain to us all how one "regulates the value of gold or silver" if you are forced to make money out of gold and silver?
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Dunno, you tell me. :) I'm not an expert in law interpretation, nor the English language. Although I find it interesting it says "to coin money", not "print money". :roll:
 
Canell said:
Dunno, you tell me. :) I'm not an expert in law interpretation, nor the English language. Although I find it interesting it says "to coin money", not "print money". :roll:
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Prolly cause the phrase "coin money" means both.

You know you could make "coins" out of iron and still be true to what you assume it means.
 
JP Hochbaum said:
I challenge any gold bugs to use their gold to pay: taxes, rent, mortgage, car payments, credit cards, student loans, grocery bills, utility bills, etc....

Then come back to me and tell me what happens.
Click to expand...

I challenge you to go to pay your grocery bill with English Pounds.
 
imagep said:
Of course the value of gold can also drop.

gold.jpg


The value of the dollar is far more stable than the value of gold. At least with the dollar, we can pretty much count on it loosing a little value most every year.
Click to expand...

Actually it is the value of the DOLLAR that is NOT stable in that chart you posted. An ounce of gold is always worth and ounce of gold. A barrel of OIL has just about ALWAYS traded for the same amount of grains of gold for the past 100 years. The value of gold is relative to DOLLAR strength/weakness, it is NOT the other way around.
 
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JP Hochbaum said:
Are you a STATE?
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Article 1 The Congress shall have Power... section 5 To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

The FED is a private bank, not congress....
 
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