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The Minimum Wage Fallacy

pulled out because this is important. And if you reduced your pay to $3 an hour, would you be able to retain decent worker".

I'm not sure what you do - what would happen to the quality of your product if you were only able to hire and retain crappy workers?



That makes no sense to me. We need to screw over people whose labor isn't worth the minimum wage by ensuring that nobody gives them jobs?



:doh

Our nations GDP works out to nearly $150k/worker. That means that our average worker produces about $75/hr of production. So do you really think that paying 1/10th of the average production value (lets face it, our average worker isn't exactly brilliant or amazingly industrious) is too much to ask of our employers?
 
If I remember right, when I started working as a teen, 'minimum wage' was about $2.50 an hour or so. Did I bitch about it? Hell no, I worked my way up.
 
So you think it's economically benefical for us to tax the productive, subsidize the unproductive, and as such this new money that the unproductive have, will help stimulate the economy? (Or am I misunderstanding your statement?)

Let's call a spade a spade, what is someone who provides absolutely nothing yet draws from the productivity of others? It's a leech. I don't think people are naturally leeches, I think our government makes them become such.

Just because someone makes more money doesn't mean they are more productive. It means they own the capital to force people to produce for them.
 
Just because someone makes more money doesn't mean they are more productive. It means they own the capital to force people to produce for them.
Typically speaking though, those who have more money are reaping the benefits of the labor sowed. Does Jeff Bezos, the creator of amazon, deserve the many billions he has today? Absolutely, because at one point he took a HUGE risk starting a business with his own money, and in doing so has changed the world for the better. Does he do much now? Probably not, but that doesn't undo what he's accomplished.

I started at the very bottom, and I worked my way up. I'd rather see us try to get people in jobs and get on-the-job training than to tell them to hang at home and send them a paycheck.
 
Typically speaking though, those who have more money are reaping the benefits of the labor sowed. Does Jeff Bezos, the creator of amazon, deserve the many billions he has today? Absolutely, because at one point he took a HUGE risk starting a business with his own money, and in doing so has changed the world for the better. Does he do much now? Probably not, but that doesn't undo what he's accomplished.

I started at the very bottom, and I worked my way up. I'd rather see us try to get people in jobs and get on-the-job training than to tell them to hang at home and send them a paycheck.

Well now the discussion is going into the valuation of who deserves what more. It is best we avoid this because it is a judgement based argument.
 
Well now the discussion is going into the valuation of who deserves what more. It is best we avoid this because it is a judgement based argument.

He countered your example, and you'd rather not discuss it?
 
How would they become unemployable?

Because an artificial price floor has priced them out of the market just as an artificially increased price has reduced demand.
 
Because an artificial price floor has priced them out of the market just as an artificially increased price has reduced demand.

I wonder if this has ever happened with minimum wage, ever.
 
Our nations GDP works out to nearly $150k/worker. That means that our average worker produces about $75/hr of production.

Poor figure to grab: GDP includes governmental spending, which is to say, it double counts the same productivity. Not to mention the interference of our trade deficit, which in no way indicates hourly production of the American worker. If I produce a dollars worth of wealth, and it is then taxed and used to pay a cop to keep me from speeding, then the actual wealth of society has not increased.

Gross National Income works out to 9.8 Trillion, but still includes government salaries. We've got 142 million people currently working, about 20.5 million of whom are government employees (using latest BLS numbers), leaving you with about 122 million private sector workers (we'll just pretend that government contractors are producing something rather than filling in governmental roles. We'll just understand that will make the final figure a bit off). Using 2010 Census data, monthly federal salaries come out to $16.238 Bn, State monthly salaries come out to $19.579 Bn, and Local monthly salaries come out to $50.825 Bn, meaning that of the 9.8 Trillion in Income that Americans earned, only about $1.04 Trillion of it is just reshuffled productive earnings going to government workers.

Slightly more accurate numbers, therefore, are 122 million American private sector workers bringing in about $8.75 Trillion in income. That comes out to an annualized $71,721 per actual private sector working American, a little less than half of your claimed $150K. Utilizing back-of-the-napkin math, assuming that your original $75/hour figure was the correct derivative of the $150K/year figure, that means that the actual average hourly income of a private sector American worker is about $35.86. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average hourly earnings for non-farm employees is $23.39. That $12.47/hour difference, of course, being your small business owners, who are not "employees". Frankly, given their higher risk and level of investment, I'm pretty sure I'm fine with them pulling in an extra twelve bucks an hour.


Anywho, given that the average hourly wage is significantly above the minimum wage, it seems rather obvious that, in fact, quality labor is in demand. Given that we do not, in fact, have clusterings of large percentages of the workforce at the minimum wage, the claim that we would see large numbers of people's incomes slide as a result of lowering or revoking the minimum wage is ridiculous. Were that the case, they would already be making the minimum wage.


There is only one group of actual private sector American citizen workers I can think of off-hand who would actually face a potential reduction if the minimum wage were lowered or removed. That would be unions whose wages are often negotiated in multiples of the minimum wage, and whose political money often goes to advocate for hikes in said minimum wage..... :thinking huh. Odd, that. It's almost as if a cartel were seeking to artificially reduce supply, thereby increasing price....
 
I wonder if this has ever happened with minimum wage, ever.

:doh

We'll walk through this. The demographic in American society whose labor is generally worth the least is young urban males without a highschool degree. There is a heavy overlap between this segment, and young black men. NOT coincidentally, that is also the segment of American society that suffers from the highest unemployment. So, instead, they are pushed into the black market looking for labor - where they are more roughly appraised. I forget the guy's name off the top of my head, but the Chicago Economist who spent time breaking down actual hourly income in the underground economy figured that your average worker brought in around $2.38 an hour. Except, of course, that worker wasn't earning any new skills, or legitimate work history, meaning that the more time he spent "officially unemployed", the less employable he was.

Look, keeping the underclass unemployed was the point of the minimum wage. It's not like the sudden discovery that price floors have a negative effect on those whose good or product is not worth more than the floor is new. The minimum wage was introduced in order to defend Decent White Folks who were trying to raise Decent White Families in Decent White Conditions... but who were being undercut by "Negros and mongrelized asian hordes." Sidney Webb (British Socialist) argued that "[o]f all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites, the most ruinous to the community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage earners". Edward Alsworth Ross (American Progressive) pointed out that since inferior races were content to live closer to a filthy state of nature than the Nordic man, they did not require a civilized wage. "The Coolie cannot outdo the American, but he can underlive him" was the problem, and the answer was to enact a civilized minimum wage that would put said savages out of wage competition. The authors of the Davis-Bacon Act were quite open about the fact that the intent was to keep cheap black laborers from "taking" jobs from whites.

Now, the language has shifted, and the minimum wage is presented as a means of wealth-redistribution. the argument goes that any employer can afford to pay any worker minimum wage (plus taxes, plus the regulatory burden), and so they should be forced to do so, in order to make sure that the worker is getting enough resources from the employer. Unfortunately, this is in direct contradiction to historical reality - the originators of the minimum wage had a sounder grasp of economics than its' modern defenders. In practice, many workers today are not worth the minimum wage plus the cost of taxation plus the additional regulatory burden. It's a small percentage of the total workforce, but it is our poorer portion of the workforce. If you are part of the community that is young, urban, poor, black, and dropped out of high school because doing drugs or having a baby sounded like more fun at the time, then you face the harsh reality that under our current regime, you may be structurally unemployable. Oh, given some experience, some job skills, etc. you could become employable; but thanks to the higher cost whose threshold you cannot cross, you will never get that experience.

Meanwhile, demand goes on, and the guys in the neighborhood a block over are all working 10-12 hours a day. Because they don't fall under minimum wage or regulatory laws - because they are illegals immigrants.

And so they are partly right, who defend the minimum wage today. Minimum wage laws today absolutely serve as a wealth redistributor. They take wealth and jobs from our poor, and give it to illegals, just as once they took them from our blacks to give to our whites.
 
I love all the typing, but I asked for proof of it.

There have been two actual studies done that show that minimum wage increases hiring:

http://www.krueger.princeton.edu/90051397.pdf

Minimum Wage Increases Promote Jobs: Study - The Huffington Post

Then there is Australia which has the equivalent minimum wage of $15 an hour and they have lower unemployment than us.

You are attempting to use MICRO examples and intuitive thinking. But MACRO evidence goes against what little micro examples we so choose to look at.
 
I love all the typing, but I asked for proof of it.

There have been two actual studies done that show that minimum wage increases hiring:

http://www.krueger.princeton.edu/90051397.pdf

Minimum Wage Increases Promote Jobs: Study - The Huffington Post

Then there is Australia which has the equivalent minimum wage of $15 an hour and they have lower unemployment than us.

You are attempting to use MICRO examples and intuitive thinking. But MACRO evidence goes against what little micro examples we so choose to look at.


Given the inherent irony in this statement, I am going to assume you didn't bother to read through your own cited study? ;)

:lol: happens to us all, man :)
 
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Given the inherent irony in this statement, I am going to assume you didn't bother to read through your own cited study?

I agree it is ironic that micro doesn't tell us much about what happens on a macro scale. There is nothing to assume, I have read them.
 
I agree it is ironic that micro doesn't tell us much about what happens on a macro scale. There is nothing to assume, I have read them.

fascinating. perhaps you can explain to me how particular fast food chains in two states over a small period of time is a "macro" study? :)



As for Australia, well, there are alot of things that go into creating employment and turning it into unemployment. Australia, for example, actually has a lower burden of governance than we do - particularly in the area of regulation. Wages are only part of the cost of building a business and hiring employees, after all :).


Anywho, as I already pointed out, the average hourly wage for Americans is well above Australia's minimum wage. Minimum wage laws don't effect the vast majority of workers. Only the most vulnerable ones, who then fall victim to it.
 
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fascinating. perhaps you can explain to me how particular fast food chains in two states over a small period of time is a "macro" study? :)
A state is definitely a MACRO scale. Micro is using individual examples and measurements.
 
As for Australia, well, there are alot of things that go into creating employment and turning it into unemployment. Australia, for example, actually has a lower burden of governance than we do - particularly in the area of regulation. Wages are only part of the cost of building a business and hiring employees, after all :).
A lower burden of governance? Interesting, I love new made up measurements.
 
:lol: What? That's not new, man. :D

A state is definitely a MACRO scale. Micro is using individual examples and measurements.

:) it wasn't a state. it was a couple of fast food chains inside only two states.

However, if you really want to go state by state, and compare the ones with the highest minimum wages to the ones with the highest unemployment percentages for those with the least employment qualifications (young urban males without a high school degree), and then compare the before/after effects of, say, the most recent national minimum wage hike.... well, tonight I've procrastinated from studying for long enough, but I'd be happy to take on that li'l project with you.
 
:lol: What? That's not new, man. :D



:) it wasn't a state. it was a couple of fast food chains inside only two states.

However, if you really want to go state by state, and compare the ones with the highest minimum wages to the ones with the highest unemployment percentages for those with the least employment qualifications (young urban males without a high school degree), and then compare the before/after effects of, say, the most recent national minimum wage hike.... well, tonight I've procrastinated from studying for long enough, but I'd be happy to take on that li'l project with you.

The reason why the study chose fast food was for the sole purpose of having as close to a control group as possible.

If you simply correlate state minimum wages and unemployment you won't be removing other possible correlating factors.
 
A lower burden of governance? Interesting, I love new made up measurements.
Especially when the public sector in Australia spends 40-50% of GDP versus the 20-25% share spent here.
 
Just as an FYI, hiring decisons are not made with regard to wage rates. Hiring is done to provide the workforce needed to maximize current profit in response to current demand. If I run a restaurant and I need eight busboys on the floor and then the minimum wage goes up, I don't start laying them off. All that does is lengthen the amount of time it takes me to turn over a table and get another tab started. Wait times increase and the delays cause customers to become irritated and less likely to return. That doesn't fit my business model very well at all. Every enterprise has a mix of skill levels that it needs to call upon, just as it has a need for a variety of non-human inputs. If I know I need 60 t-bones per day, and their price goes up, I don't order just 40 and then tell 20 customers we don't have t-bone today. I pay the price increase and then pass that on, make it up someplace else, or find some combination of the two. What do you think happens to the price of ice when fuel prices spike? Do you think we just start serving ice tea at room temperature? Some of you have some really weird notions about the ways in which the real world works.

By the way, like everyone else, most illegals work for considerably more than the minimum wage. Such limited and stereotypical thinking goes on here sometimes.
 
Well now the discussion is going into the valuation of who deserves what more. It is best we avoid this because it is a judgement based argument.
That's been the discussion all along. You claim that the poor deserve more simply because it is a noble thing to do. While I believe that the free market can determine the value of one's productivity, and that everyone has some value of worth, unlike what you would suggest where those who can not meet the minimum wage value have zero worth, and therefore do not deserve to work and earn an honest wage. Don't try to make it something it isn't.
 
That's been the discussion all along. You claim that the poor deserve more simply because it is a noble thing to do. While I believe that the free market can determine the value of one's productivity, and that everyone has some value of worth, unlike what you would suggest where those who can not meet the minimum wage value have zero worth, and therefore do not deserve to work and earn an honest wage. Don't try to make it something it isn't.
I never once made that claim.
 
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Especially when the public sector in Australia spends 40-50% of GDP versus the 20-25% share spent here.

Government Taxation and Spending as a % of GDP

Australia Tax Burden: 30.8% Spending: 34.3%
United States Tax Burden: 26.9% Spending: 38.9%

:) woops?




Incidentally, for those of you who wonder what the effect of debt-to-GDP is, Australia's debt is approximately 25% of GDP.
 
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