So, Here's One For Ya[W:147]

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Gee, it is? Because I've been dating for quite a while (let's keep in mind, the millenials are not just "kids" -- some of us are in our 30's now), pretty successfully, and with also pretty successful friends, and all of our relationships say that isn't just how normal human beings act.

Rather, the ones who act like that are the ones who tend to have relationships that either fail or are full of resentment, perpetuated by people who don't believe other people have inherent value, but rather that relationships are business deals where you take as much as you can from each other.

It wasn't always that way, and for a lot of us, it's not that way anymore. And thank dog for that. Just another way that humanity continues to improve, and Western culture in particular, as it slowly shakes off its emotional self-loathing.

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Really? What is it exactly that you think you've changed? What is that you think you've done differently? And what is your measure of "success," as you say you've been dating "pretty successfully"? I'm not being sarcastic. I really do want to know.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

Really? What is it exactly that you think you've changed? What is that you think you've done differently? And what is your measure of "success," as you say you've been dating "pretty successfully"? I'm not being sarcastic. I really do want to know.

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I think compared to the last couple generations, a higher percentage of us just basically come as we are. We don't do the big production date, which is essentially an economic exchange with some rather unsavory unspoken strings. We're a lot more cognizant of equality obviously, which means people who date women in particular have better conversations about both sexual and relational desires and see that women have value beyond their willingness to have sex with you. I think there are more men in my generation who also express themselves more openly and have a clearer picture of what a relationship looks like, in this landscape of more equal and more high-quality conversations.

My experience, basically, is that there is less of the stuff Nilly hates: less "gotta look cool and uninterested," less "gotta manipulate her friendship to get in her pants," less "Mars versus Venus, separate but 'equal'" less "flash my money so she'll flash her skirt."

Clearly those things still exist, and in the younger generations too. No gen is without their drama queens and players. But there's more people who see them for that they are, avoid them, and find each other in the process.

What have we done differently? Well, I think a lot of it is that we've grown up in a more connected world where we've been challenged to understand diverse experiences more. We're more global thinkers, less religious, more educated... All of those things help us understand others better, and realize that the lines the previous generations saw as giant chasms between the sexes... actually don't really exist for the most part.

My measure of success? Honest and open relationships that I feel add pretty much nothing but good things to my life. I can be myself, they can be themselves, we can handle problems, and there's no giant chasm of expectation between us.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I think compared to the last couple generations, a higher percentage of us just basically come as we are. We don't do the big production date, which is essentially an economic exchange with some rather unsavory unspoken strings. We're a lot more cognizant of equality obviously, which means people who date women in particular have better conversations about both sexual and relational desires and see that women have value beyond their willingness to have sex with you. I think there are more men in my generation who also express themselves more openly and have a clearer picture of what a relationship looks like, in this landscape of more equal and more high-quality conversations.

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The past you're describing only exists in movies, TV shows (particularly old TV shows), and the nostalgic edited memories of older generations.

Truth is, dating has always been dating, just like you've experienced it. Young people have always been young people bursting with energy and sexual drive, eager to challenge the "rules," and be non-conformists. They saw who they wanted to see, and they did it the way they wanted to do it.

This idea that "dating" used to be some formal affair with bobby soxers and soda shops is pure popular myth.

My experience, basically, is that there is less of the stuff Nilly hates: less "gotta look cool and uninterested,"

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That may be how you've worked it yourself, but that ain't how it works on a generational level. You're talking about hardwired, genetically-programmed behavior which human beings -- indeed, NORMAL human beings -- have always exhibited. You'll find it every tribe in every land, in all the old stories, in all the new stories, from the Ancient Greeks to the Kama Sutra to Shakespeare to the earliest beginnings of Japanese Manga -- to say nothing of some of the more ribald Egyptian wall paintings -- because it's simply what human nature is.

Human nature doesn't change.

less "gotta manipulate her friendship to get in her pants," less "Mars versus Venus, separate but 'equal'" less "flash my money so she'll flash her skirt."

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Nonetheless, for a significant swathe of every generation, including your own, these kinds of things go on, and they work. It's what people do. It's what people will continue to do.

Clearly those things still exist, and in the younger generations too. No gen is without their drama queens and players. But there's more people who see them for that they are, avoid them, and find each other in the process.

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Based on what? If nothing else, the stats say the Millennial generation is by several measures more conservative in sexual and dating behavior than earlier generations were.

What have we done differently? Well, I think a lot of it is that we've grown up in a more connected world where we've been challenged to understand diverse experiences more. We're more global thinkers, less religious, more educated... All of those things help us understand others better, and realize that the lines the previous generations saw as giant chasms between the sexes... actually don't really exist for the most part.

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That doesn't really tell me what you DO differently. It doesn't tell me how you approach DATING differently. It also doesn't tell me what your measure for dating "success" is.

It's all about what you actually DO, not how you see the world.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

The past you're describing only exists in movies, TV shows (particularly old TV shows), and the nostalgic edited memories of older generations.

Truth is, dating has always been dating, just like you've experienced it. Young people have always been young people bursting with energy and sexual drive, eager to challenge the "rules," and be non-conformists. They saw who they wanted to see, and they did it the way they wanted to do it.

This idea that "dating" used to be some formal affair with bobby soxers and soda shops is pure popular myth.

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I'm not really saying that. And I've watched a fair few Boomers date, actually, and yes, they do play by very different rules, even now. They play games and bartner with their drinks and dinners and the whole thing is just rather gross.

That may be how you've worked it yourself, but that ain't how it works on a generational level. You're talking about hardwired, genetically-programmed behavior which human beings -- indeed, NORMAL human beings -- have always exhibited. You'll find it every tribe in every land, in all the old stories, in all the new stories, from the Ancient Greeks to the Kama Sutra to Shakespeare to the earliest beginnings of Japanese Manga -- to say nothing of some of the more ribald Egyptian wall paintings -- because it's simply what human nature is.

Human nature doesn't change.

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It is, actually. That's what humans are famous for: changing.

And none of that stupid, childish crap is "hardwired." And half the societies you name had traditions in direct opposition to the older, American tradition I'm discussing. So...

Nonetheless, for a significant swathe of every generation, including your own, these kinds of things go on, and they work. It's what people do. It's what people will continue to do.

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Define "work." Result in people interacting? Yes, they seem to. Like attracts like. However, they seem to have much more tumultuous relationships than the rest of us.

Well, they're not continuing to do it, even as they're getting to the mortgage-and-kids age, so evidently you're wrong. :lol:

Based on what? If nothing else, the stats say the Millennial generation is by several measures more conservative in sexual and dating behavior than earlier generations were.

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Yes, and that is no surprise, once you pin down the WAY in which they appear to be more "conservative" (they're not, but we'll get to that).

Millenials have fewer partners (and in more equal numbers between the sexes -- actually, when there is a difference, it's women having more than men) and later ages of sexual debut.

Do you know why that is?

One, they are more educated. They understand the risks of sex, and are less likely to have grown up in a severely shaming home. Both of those things correlate with more healthy sexual behavior, which includes not doing it until you are ready on both a practical and emotional metric.

And furthermore, it is actually more evolutionarily normal for humans to be a bit older before they have coitus -- late teens or so. The young ages we saw for so many hundreds of years were a nasty side effect of gender oppression and self-harm behaviors (risky sexual behavior at immature ages is a common manifestation of shame or acting out previous abuse).

Being more liberated doesn't mean ****ing more people, necessarily. It means feeling good about whoever you do **** and feeling empowered to make those decisions for yourself. Just because they aren't having as many partners as the generations who lived through our society sucking out the poison of sexual piety does not mean they're "conservative." It just means they aren't living with as much psychological damage.

That doesn't really tell me what you DO differently. It doesn't tell me how you approach DATING differently. It also doesn't tell me what your measure for dating "success" is.

It's all about what you actually DO, not how you see the world.

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What I do? Well, depends.

If I meet people by chance, talk a few times, then probably ask them out for coffee.

If I am on a dating site, chat for a bit, when ask them out for coffee.

:shrug:

My measure for the success of the relationship itself is that we both have clarity on what we want, and we are getting that out of it in a mutually supportive way. What I have wanted has changed over the course of my life. I was actually not one of the lucky millenials who grew up without issue-causing social forces, so I have had to deal with that as well, and in some respects I still am.

But I've already described what more of us tend to DO differently: we are better communicators, we are more emotionally honest, and we don't view dating as a barter system. So, conversations are more likely to actually solve problems. First dates are more likely to give us an honest, pressure-free picture of who we're seeing.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I'm not really saying that. And I've watched a fair few Boomers date, actually, and yes, they do play by very different rules, even now. They play games and bartner with their drinks and dinners and the whole thing is just rather gross.

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What do YOU do differently? On a date? Which is different from how previous generations behaved?

It is, actually. That's what humans are famous for: changing.

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Oh . . . oh no, no, no, no. Humans are famous for repeating the same, often destructive, behaviors over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, throughout all -- that is, all -- of recorded history.

And none of that stupid, childish crap is "hardwired."

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It's exactly the same behavior exhibited by primates of every species. (And other, lower species, too.)

Humans are primates. We are creatures of instinct. This **** is in our genes. Because it works. The species survives and propagates.

And half the societies you name had traditions in direct opposition to the older, American tradition I'm discussing. So...

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You miss the point -- every kind of dating/loveplay behavior you can imagine can be found throughout history, and . . . it's not as different from each other as you think it is.

Define "work." Result in people interacting? Yes, they seem to. Like attracts like. However, they seem to have much more tumultuous relationships than the rest of us.

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I think that's more your imagination at work than the reality of the situation. Relationships are hard work, for everyone, and they all have their own kinds of stresses and problems.

Some people are less equipped, emotionally, to keep the outward expressions of those problems under control and out of the public eye, but that doesn't mean the quiet people have relationships free of "tumult."

Well, they're not continuing to do it, even as they're getting to the mortgage-and-kids age, so evidently you're wrong. :lol:

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No, actually, that people's behavior changes as they get older is part of the point.

Yes, and that is no surprise, once you pin down the WAY in which they appear to be more "conservative" (they're not, but we'll get to that).

Millenials have fewer partners (and in more equal numbers between the sexes -- actually, when there is a difference, it's women having more than men) and later ages of sexual debut.

Do you know why that is?

One, they are more educated. They understand the risks of sex, and are less likely to have grown up in a severely shaming home. Both of those things correlate with more healthy sexual behavior, which includes not doing it until you are ready on both a practical and emotional metric.

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I'm sorry, but this is simply what you're telling yourself. You're just doing what people in every generation have done -- you're assuming that you're, as a group, simply smarter and wiser than the generations before you.

You will come to a day when you look at the generation behind you and shake your head at them for saying exactly what you're saying here. That day will come.

On to Pt. 2.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Pt. 2.

And furthermore, it is actually more evolutionarily normal for humans to be a bit older before they have coitus -- late teens or so.

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Oh, dear LORD, that's wrong.

The young ages we saw for so many hundreds of years were a nasty side effect of gender oppression and self-harm behaviors (risky sexual behavior at immature ages is a common manifestation of shame or acting out previous abuse).

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No. That's mythological, ahistorical pap.

EVERYONE likes to think of the olden times, and olden people, as being more nasty, brutish, and repressed, full of superstitions and ignorant people, but the truth is, the past was a lot more enlightened than you want to think, and you've read too many Hawthorne-esque tales of scarlet letters.

People were always people. People always liked sex. People always found ways to have sex.

And women, by the way, always controlled sex.

Being more liberated doesn't mean ****ing more people, necessarily.

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What is it that you think you're more "liberated" from, compared to previous generations? Compared to X? Compared to the Boomers? Compared to the WWII and WWI generations?

It means feeling good about whoever you do **** and feeling empowered to make those decisions for yourself.

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Do you seriously think that the Millennials are the first generation to think this way? I mean, seriously?

Just because they aren't having as many partners as the generations who lived through our society sucking out the poison of sexual piety does not mean they're "conservative." It just means they aren't living with as much psychological damage.

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Oh, my.

Someday, you're going to be embarrassed by ever having been this arrogant. And I don't mean that to scold -- it's just what will happen, once you get another decade or two on you, and everything becomes less black and white as the years go on. You're going to honestly wonder where you ever got the idea that you were as wise as you thought you were.

You'll see. There's lots of literature throughout history about THAT, too.

What I do? Well, depends.

If I meet people by chance, talk a few times, then probably ask them out for coffee.

If I am on a dating site, chat for a bit, when ask them out for coffee.

:shrug:

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In what way could you possibly imagine that this is different from what people have always done? Particularly, say, the last ten generations?

My measure for the success of the relationship itself is that we both have clarity on what we want, and we are getting that out of it in a mutually supportive way.

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How is that even "dating"? You were saying something about business partnerships earlier; this pretty much describes the goal of any contract. It certainly describes any attempt at a positive relationship, dating or not.

But I've already described what more of us tend to DO differently: we are better communicators, we are more emotionally honest, and we don't view dating as a barter system. So, conversations are more likely to actually solve problems. First dates are more likely to give us an honest, pressure-free picture of who we're seeing.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but if you think this is anything new, you're mistaken. And if you think your generation is actually more prone to "conversations" solving problems, and if you think that in general, first dates are anything but two people putting their best face forward, you're kidding yourself.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

Oh . . . oh no, no, no, no. Humans are famous for repeating the same, often destructive, behaviors over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, throughout all -- that is, all -- of recorded history.

It's exactly the same behavior exhibited by primates of every species. (And other, lower species, too.)

Humans are primates. We are creatures of instinct. This **** is in our genes. Because it works. The species survives and propagates.

Some people are less equipped, emotionally, to keep the outward expressions of those problems under control and out of the public eye, but that doesn't mean the quiet people have relationships free of "tumult."

I'm sorry, but this is simply what you're telling yourself. You're just doing what people in every generation have done -- you're assuming that you're, as a group, simply smarter and wiser than the generations before you.

You will come to a day when you look at the generation behind you and shake your head at them for saying exactly what you're saying here. That day will come.

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Your poutrage is making this unreadable, so I'm going to try to condense...

Mostly, I avoid date scenarios that involve barter and I try my best to present myself truthfully to how I am day-to-day. Just because you lie on dates doesn't mean we all do. :shrug:

Actually all primates are extremely different. Are you seriously trying to tell me baboons and bonobos are similar in behaviour? :lol: I think you need to go back to biology if you believe that, because that is laughably ridiculous. And of all the primates, humans are the most widely adaptable in terms of behavior.

Actually human dating cultures are very different. You have dowry cultures that just marry women off to men's harems, and then you have a tribe where when a woman comes of age, she sleeps with EVERY available man in the tribe to decide which one she wants to be with. Yes, really. Again, you're incredibly ignorant on this subject.

Yes, I'm aware relationships are hard work. They've been harder work for me than many. But the difference is that we of the newer mindset aim to genuinely work together, whereas those of the older mindset seem to settle for relationships where the other serves some sort of material goal.

Well, the millenials' behavior isn't changing. We're still not doing it how previous generations did even as we grow older and close to middle age, for the eldest of us.

I'm not assuming we're smarter. What I'm actually saying is that we're returning to base. :shrug: Things wax and wane over time. Piety in the West was an era that caused some ugly things, and now we're just recovering, thanks to the long, hard work of some of our more tenacious predecessors.

I hope that day comes where our behavior as seen as inferior to the new way. I hope the next gen is better than we are. I'm not so selfish and petty that I would want otherwise.

Harshaw said:

Oh, dear LORD, that's wrong.

EVERYONE likes to think of the olden times, and olden people, as being more nasty, brutish, and repressed...

Someday, you're going to be embarrassed by ever having been this arrogant. And I don't mean that to scold -- it's just what will happen, once you get another decade or two on you, and everything becomes less black and white as the years go on. You're going to honestly wonder where you ever got the idea that you were as wise as you thought you were.

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No, I'm not. Humans didn't even used to reach menarche until 16 or 17 years old, so why would they have sex when they're still physically immature? But I bet you knew nothing about that...

Our environments have altered our bodies, and therefore our behaviors, and sometimes that has been unhealthy. We're correcting for it now, despite that our bodies remain altered.

People WERE more nasty, brutish, and oppressed. Just on sheer statistical numbers, murder, rape, and hate crimes were more common than they are now. That's just a fact whether you like it or not. We're improving as a species.

You're assuming I think the millenials have "arrived." I don't. I don't think any generation ever will. I think we're just continuing to improve. We still have all kinds of problems. We've just made good headway on the ones that plagued the people who came before us. In no small part because they were working on those things before we were born, and tried their best to raise us as they wished they had been raised. That's how society improves.

Fact is, we're better at this stuff. Demonstrably, statistically better. Projections say we're having less marital strife, planning better, having safer and more healthy sex, more faithful to our agreements... Those things are just facts.

I never said we weren't standing on the work of our predecessors. I just said we're assuming our role to continue it in fairly good form.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Your poutrage is making this unreadable, so I'm going to try to condense...

Mostly, I avoid date scenarios that involve barter and I try my best to present myself truthfully to how I am day-to-day. Just because you lie on dates doesn't mean we all do. :shrug:

Actually all primates are extremely different. Are you seriously trying to tell me baboons and bonobos are similar in behaviour? :lol: I think you need to go back to biology if you believe that, because that is laughably ridiculous. And of all the primates, humans are the most widely adaptable in terms of behavior.

Actually human dating cultures are very different. You have dowry cultures that just marry women off to men's harems, and then you have a tribe where when a woman comes of age, she sleeps with EVERY available man in the tribe to decide which one she wants to be with. Yes, really. Again, you're incredibly ignorant on this subject.

Yes, I'm aware relationships are hard work. They've been harder work for me than many. But the difference is that we of the newer mindset aim to genuinely work together, whereas those of the older mindset seem to settle for relationships where the other serves some sort of material goal.

Well, the millenials' behavior isn't changing. We're still not doing it how previous generations did even as we grow older and close to middle age, for the eldest of us.

I'm not assuming we're smarter. What I'm actually saying is that we're returning to base. :shrug: Things wax and wane over time. Piety in the West was an era that caused some ugly things, and now we're just recovering, thanks to the long, hard work of some of our more tenacious predecessors.

I hope that day comes. I hope the next gen is better than we are. I'm not so selfish and petty that I would want otherwise.



No, I'm not. Humans didn't even used to reach menarche until 16 or 17 years old, so why would they have sex when they're still physically immature? But I bet you knew nothing about that...

Our environments have altered our bodies, and therefore our behaviors, and sometimes that has been unhealthy. We're correcting for it now, despite that our bodies remain altered.

People WERE more nasty, brutish, and oppressed. Just on sheer statistical numbers, murder, rape, and hate crimes were more common than they are now. That's just a fact whether you like it or not. We're improving as a species.

You're assuming I think the millenials have "arrived." I don't. I don't think any generation ever will. I think we're just continuing to improve. We still have all kinds of problems. We've just made good headway on the ones that plagued the people who came before us. In no small part because they were working on those things before we were born, and tried their best to raise us as they wished they had been raised. That's how society improves.

Fact is, we're better at this stuff. Demonstrably, statistically better. Projections say we're having less marital strife, planning better, having safer and more healthy sex, more faithful to our agreements... Those things are just facts.

I never said we weren't standing on the work of our predecessors. I just said we're assuming our role to continue it in fairly good form.

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My "poutrage"? Is that what you call things you don't want to hear? I mean, really. You might as well just say "you're stupid."

You have yet to explain a THING about this "newer mindset" which didn't ALSO prevail in previous generations. You're simply going on erroneous impressions of how previous generations dated. They did what you do.

But like I said, every generation goes through this. Every generation thinks it's the most enlightened, freest-thinking, and "liberated" generation to walk the Earth. Every generation has trouble imagining previous generations engaging in sex and mating, but guess what? They all did. They all had fun with it too. They all did it casually, joked about it with each other, and thought the previous generation were a bunch of repressed squares. There's nothing -- that is, nothing -- you've ever done or thought of doing which the people in previous generations didn't.

I mean, your grandparents went down on each other. So did their parents. They all sneaked out of the house to hook up. They all had what they thought were mind-blowing conversations about big ideas and thought they were the ones who were going to change the world, and all that rot, and how they'd never be like their parents and their parents' parents. And they all certainly thought they'd never be the boring ones sitting around making small talk.

But every generation also eventually learns . . . people are people, and always have been. No one's special. No generation is special. And all those things that you think you're liberating yourself from when you're young are simply what people do.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

To wit:

https://www.amazon.com/13th-Gen-Abo...=UTF8&qid=1478025800&sr=8-1&keywords=13th+Gen

In this book, in which the Boomers "studied" Generation X, there are many, many, many statements from then-very-young Gen Xers saying everything you just said. It's a particularly relevant read, because it concerns the first online generation, the first to taste all the kinds of connectedness and relative freedom that you're saying Millennials (uniquely?) benefit from.

If you really want to know how the previous generation thought and related to each other, it's a good read.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

My "poutrage"? Is that what you call things you don't want to hear? I mean, really. You might as well just say "you're stupid."

You have yet to explain a THING about this "newer mindset" which didn't ALSO prevail in previous generations. You're simply going on erroneous impressions of how previous generations dated. They did what you do.

But like I said, every generation goes through this. Every generation thinks it's the most enlightened, freest-thinking, and "liberated" generation to walk the Earth. Every generation has trouble imagining previous generations engaging in sex and mating, but guess what? They all did. They all had fun with it too. They all did it casually, joked about it with each other, and thought the previous generation were a bunch of repressed squares. There's nothing -- that is, nothing -- you've ever done or thought of doing which the people in previous generations didn't.

I mean, your grandparents went down on each other. So did their parents. They all sneaked out of the house to hook up. They all had what they thought were mind-blowing conversations about big ideas and thought they were the ones who were going to change the world, and all that rot, and how they'd never be like their parents and their parents' parents. And they all certainly thought they'd never be the boring ones sitting around making small talk.

But every generation also eventually learns . . . people are people, and always have been. No one's special. No generation is special. And all those things that you think you're liberating yourself from when you're young are simply what people do.

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I'm just gonna take apart the factual things here, since they are probably more useful towards pointing out why all of this is wrong than directly arguing your emotionalism...

Actually it was common for cunnilingus to be seen as sinful in their day and age. Women were often so severely sexually shamed and neglected that they developed physical sexual disorders (like how men can develop ED from psychological factors). One, called vaginismus, resulted in extreme pain with intercourse. This was very common. Another, clitoral degeneration, rendered a woman essentially incapable of orgasm. This was so common for so long that medical science in the West actually "lost" the clitoris for a while, and rediscovered it. This actually happened a number of times throughout Western history.

So, no, they didn't. In fact, it is very likely my grandmother never had an orgasm in her entire life. A lot of women in her generation didn't.

There have been brighter eras of history for sexual freedom, even in the West. Weirdly enough, the Puritans were actually pretty decent with this stuff, and to call sexual repression "puritanical" is actually sort of ironic.

But I don't envy my grandmother in the slightest.

I never said we were special. You just seem to hate the idea that neither are you, and your ideas weren't the pinnacle of human achievement.

I have no such childish sensitivities. I hope the next generation does it better than we have, and I think there's a good chance they will. It ain't like there still isn't plenty to fix.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

To wit:

https://www.amazon.com/13th-Gen-Abo...=UTF8&qid=1478025800&sr=8-1&keywords=13th+Gen

In this book, in which the Boomers "studied" Generation X, there are many, many, many statements from then-very-young Gen Xers saying everything you just said. It's a particularly relevant read, because it concerns the first online generation, the first to taste all the kinds of connectedness and relative freedom that you're saying Millennials (uniquely?) benefit from.

If you really want to know how the previous generation thought and related to each other, it's a good read.

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So what? They were right too. :shrug:

We've been on the upwards trajectory with relationships for a while now, and each gen has done it better for the last 100 years or so.

May it continue, as the gen after mine are being born.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

Every generation says this. And every generation eventually learns that the "games" they're complaining about are actually how "normal ****ing human beings" act. It may be disappointing, and it may not live up to your expectation, but it's the way it is.

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SmokeAndMirrors said:

Gee, it is? Because I've been dating for quite a while (let's keep in mind, the millenials are not just "kids" -- some of us are in our 30's now), pretty successfully, and with also pretty successful friends, and all of our relationships say that isn't just how normal human beings act.

Rather, the ones who act like that are the ones who tend to have relationships that either fail or are full of resentment, perpetuated by people who don't believe other people have inherent value, but rather that relationships are business deals where you take as much as you can from each other.

It wasn't always that way, and for a lot of us, it's not that way anymore. And thank dog for that. Just another way that humanity continues to improve, and Western culture in particular, as it slowly shakes off its emotional self-loathing.

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Harshaw said:

Really? What is it exactly that you think you've changed? What is that you think you've done differently? And what is your measure of "success," as you say you've been dating "pretty successfully"? I'm not being sarcastic. I really do want to know.

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To be fair here, "dating," as a concept, is really less than a century old. As recently as the 1910s, having young men and women pair off at random and run around town together would be basically unheard of. People realized that the inevitable conclusion of that would be sex out of wedlock (which also leads to things like babies out of wedlock), so it wasn't socially acceptable behavior. "Chaperones," meeting the parents, and group socials were more the order of the day.

The modern "dating culture" is more a development of the 1940s and 1950s. The "game" surrounding it evolved correspondingly. The 1960s and 1970s added socially acceptable casual sex, that doesn't necessarily have marriage as its endgame, to the equation. The 1980s and 1990s expanded upon that further, by pushing the ages of the participants involved into their 20s and 30s. Aughties Millennials took that a further step even beyond that by just tossing out any pretense of formality or monogamy whatsoever, and opting for an "if you grind up on me in the right way in a bar or club, I'll screw you, toss you aside, and go back out and do it again tomorrow" mentality to the thing, which not only tolerates casual sex, but looks at you kind of cross-eyed if you're after much of anything else... With people only trying to "reinvent the wheel" regarding more serious relationships at later ages.

Yes, it's a freaking mess. No, things have not "always been that way."

I would, however, dispute that Millennials are "making things better" in this regard. If anything, as a collective whole, we're responsible for shepherding this train wreck to its worst point.

After all, the key of the problem here is really the separation of sex and love, and the idea that one need not necessarily involve the other. It adds multiple different levels of ambiguity to courtship, which breeds distrust, cynical attitudes, and ever more complex behaviors and counter-behaviors meant to promote detachment, so one can minimize emotional damage brought about by negative outcomes. That's really not going to get anything but worse, given developments like the "hook-up culture."

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I'm just gonna take apart the factual things here, since they are probably more useful towards pointing out why all of this is wrong than directly arguing your emotionalism...

Actually it was common for cunnilingus to be seen as sinful in their day and age. [

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Right, 'cos you know those young people; they always refrain from doing what their parents tell them they shouldn't.

Except that you actually seem to think that yes, the youth of previous generations DID so refrain.

Which is the point. Like I said, too many movies.

Women were often so severely sexually shamed and neglected that they developed physical sexual disorders (like how men can develop ED from psychological factors). One, called vaginismus, resulted in extreme pain with intercourse. This was very common. Another, clitoral degeneration, rendered a woman essentially incapable of orgasm. This was so common for so long that medical science in the West actually "lost" the clitoris for a while, and rediscovered it. This actually happened a number of times throughout Western history.

So, no, they didn't. In fact, it is very likely my grandmother never had an orgasm in her entire life. A lot of women in her generation didn't.

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:roll:

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

There have been brighter eras of history for sexual freedom, even in the West. Weirdly enough, the Puritans were actually pretty decent with this stuff, and to call sexual repression "puritanical" is actually sort of ironic.

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Yes, I'm well aware of that. Which, really, factors into what I'm saying.

But I don't envy my grandmother in the slightest.

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Who said you should? If you think I did, then you're really, really missing the point.

I never said we were special.

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Well, yeah; you pretty much did. In multiple ways.

You just seem to hate the idea that neither are you, and your ideas weren't the pinnacle of human achievement.

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No, this just means you've missed my point entirely and completely.

When you're young, the idea that this isn't so can crush you.

As you get older, you realize it was a silly and arrogant idea ever to have had to begin with.

But until you get there yourself, I can see how you'd have this impression.

I have no such childish sensitivities.

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But you do. You've been laying them out all through this conversation.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

But every generation also eventually learns . . . people are people, and always have been. No one's special. No generation is special. And all those things that you think you're liberating yourself from when you're young are simply what people do.

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There's a distinct difference between claiming that millenials are the generation that 'got it right' vs a generation in the chain that progress onwards from earlier gens.
Nobodies claiming the former.

I think it's important to recognize that there are subsets within generations that act differently too. Plenty of millennials do play 'the game', but plenty of us don't. I'm sure it was likewise with boomers (although I can't speak to the proportions myself). I personally find it preferable to be with the people who don't, and think more people should act that way, which is why I gave such advice to OP.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

So what? They were right too. :shrug:

We've been on the upwards trajectory with relationships for a while now, and each gen has done it better for the last 100 years or so.

May it continue, as the gen after mine are being born.

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This is rather a shift from what you've been saying. I'll take it as progress.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Nilly said:

There's a distinct difference between claiming that millenials are the generation that 'got it right' vs a generation in the chain that progress onwards from earlier gens.
Nobodies claiming the former.

I think it's important to recognize that there are subsets within generations that act differently too. Plenty of millennials do play 'the game', but plenty of us don't. I'm sure it was likewise with boomers (although I can't speak to the proportions myself). I personally find it preferable to be with the people who don't, and think more people should act that way, which is why I gave such advice to OP.

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:shrug: Do whatever you like. Just don't think you're treading any new ground.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

So, no, they didn't. In fact, it is very likely my grandmother never had an orgasm in her entire life. A lot of women in her generation didn't.

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This strikes as being modern day mythology more than anything else. Simply speaking, it ain't that damn hard to give a woman an orgasm. It's so easy that, literally, "even a caveman can do it."

It just makes a convenient political narrative for feminists, because it's impossible to disprove.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Am I the only one that enjoys these threads because everyone is an expert? opcorn2:

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Gathomas88 said:

This strikes as being modern day mythology more than anything else. Simply speaking, it ain't that damn hard to give a woman an orgasm. It's so easy that, literally, "even a caveman can do it."

It just makes a convenient political narrative for feminists, because it's impossible to disprove.

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Smoke loves the men were assholes and behaved like cavemen argument. Though the they didn't please their women argument is new. I wonder how she plans to prove that claim. :lol:

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

:shrug: Do whatever you like. Just don't think you're treading any new ground.

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Sure. Thanks for the sentiment.

We'll just keep on discussing then...

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Nilly said:

Sure. Thanks for the sentiment.

We'll just keep on discussing then...

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Not sure what you wanted me to say. The whole idea this was started from is that the "games" aren't what "normal ****ing people" do, and that there should be some special "Millennial" club who do act like "normal ****ing people."

I didn't set those terms. I just pointed out that it's a pretty naive view of "normal ****ing people," one that you're more likely to have when you're young, and one that you'll think better of later.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Moderator's Warning:

Things are getting heated in this thread. Dial back the snark and personal type baiting.

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

Harshaw said:

This is rather a shift from what you've been saying. I'll take it as progress.

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No, it isn't. You just apparently don't care to read. Have fun, then. :yawn:

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

SmokeAndMirrors said:

No, it isn't. You just apparently don't care to read. Have fun, then. :yawn:

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But it was. :shrug: You repeatedly singled out the Millennials as doing things differently, repeatedly referenced things like "newer mindset," repeatedly cited the Millennials as being uniquely connected, uniquely open, uniquely communicative, and uniquely global-thinking, to say nothing of being uniquely able to handle conflict in relationships. You said these things in response to my question as to what Millennials do differently from other generations. This whole thing started because you wanted to start a Millennial club of "normal ****ing people."

Re: So, Here's One For Ya

I don't believe any generation is any more "enlightened" than the one before. When you hear people talk about the "good ole days," it wasn't that they were the best days ever --- it's just human nature to look back and remember good times.

As far as "game playing" when dating - I don't see that being any different with any generation either. There's a commercial right now (not sure of the brand/company) where everyone speaks with no filter. The two people on a date obviously aren't into each other. Instead of the usual "Let's do this again some time!" when they really don't mean it, they say exactly what they're thinking. Humans will never be like that. As much as you want to hope that your generation will be able to come right out and say what's on their mind, it's just not human nature.