128shot vs hipsterdufus - Violence of Islam

FallingPianos · 06-13-06, 10:28 PM

Topic: Violence of Islam
Is Islam a violent religion?

Monitor: jfuh

Debate Opens at 6:00AM PST Friday

FallingPianos · 06-16-06, 02:24 AM

jfuh may post the debate rules. Any posts by competitors before he does so will be deleted.

This forum hasnt been fixed to make it so that only participants can post, so until that happens all posts made by non-participants will be deleted.

*side note in response to independent_thinker2002: copying the debate rules already in existence isnt necessary. just any additional rules, or a statement that there will be no additional rules.

FallingPianos · 06-16-06, 02:46 AM

Debate is open as soon as Jfuh posts the rules.

FallingPianos · 06-16-06, 03:25 PM

discussion for this debate is here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/contes...nce-islam.html

jfuh · 06-17-06, 01:34 AM

As per discussed by myself and the two debators these are the agreed upon rules.

There will be an opening statment to which either of the two posters can post, no time frame limit.
Afterwhich I will post questions regarding the topic at hand for the two competitors. A coin toss by yours truly will determine who gets to go first to which there will be a 3 hour grace period for the opponent to respond to the question.
Rebuttles to each other will be given after determined by me that the questions have been finished. There may be just one question or there may be at most 5 questions.
All sources must be cited in proper formatt.
Civility is an absolute must. Please respect your opponent. There will be zero tolerance for any strikes below the belt. You two were choosen from many applicants so keep it professional.

Finally, keep in mind that this site is for our exchange of ideas and knowledge. So post accordingly in a professional educational style.

Let the games begin.

128shot · 06-17-06, 10:31 AM

"Repel (evil) with what is better. Then will he, between whom and thee was hatred, become as it were thy friend and intimate. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint." Chapter 41, Verse 34 and 35

I open with this quote, because it shows the side of Islam people never see. The compassionate verses of the Koran that preach nothing but love for thy enemy and thy friend.

It also shows how the Islam is a very simplifed belief system. It has everything down to a "science" so to speak. The way you live, the way you conduct war. For instance,

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190

Do these passages not restrict unprovoked warefare and violence? Does it not preach to with hold your anger even when it becomes unbearable?

This is my opening statement because it shows Islam's peaceful side. The side people never side. There is love in this Koran, and there is also hate.

You have to remember, however, the Koran guides all things in life. The meals you eat, the clothes you wear, even how to conduct warfare. On the same note however, it also warns against things muslims should not do, for instance

"… when it is said to them; 'Make not mischief on the Earth', they say; 'We are only peace makers'. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not"
Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:8

Does this not call for fair treatment of your fellow man?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_qura.htm

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=63

hipsterdufus · 06-17-06, 10:48 AM

128shot, thanks for agreeing to debate me on what is a difficult subject. I certainly don't deny that there are contradictory passages in the Qu'ran, just as there are contadictory passages in the Bible, but the overwhelming tenets of the faith are not peaceful.

Let me step back for a moment...

It's taken me quite some time to get to this place with my conclusion that Islam is a violent religion. I first vaguely pondered the subject back in 1983, when the band that I still lead was debuting a song called "Beirut". It was a powerful number that attempted to musically depict the Islamic terrorist bombings of the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon which killed 241 Marines.

Back in 1983 I was what you would call a "lapsed Catholic". There's lots of them out there.

My understanding, or more appropriately, a lack of understanding with regards to Islam that these were "People of the Book" and that this heinous terrorists act was simply the misguided deeds of a few Islamic extremists. Then came the hijacked cruise ship Achille Largo in 1985, followed by the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, 19 American soldiers killed in the Khobar Towers, bombings of US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, the US Cole tragedy of 2000, and finally 9/11.

In a subtle way each attack forced me to rethink what was going on here? Why do they hate us? Does Islamic religion promote these acts? After a lot of soul searching and research, it saddens me to report that I firmly believe that Islam is indeed a violent religion.

That is not to say that all Muslims are violent. Of course not! I want to make it perfectly clear in this debate that my intent is to not focus any hatred on Muslims. I know and work with many Muslims and their generosity puts me to shame. I am not referring to these people, or moderate or secular Muslims.

What I am referring to is the basic tenets of the Muslim faith as written in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran has no separation of Church and State and time after time calls for violence against non-Muslims. Consider the following quotes from the Qu'ran:

"Slay the pagans wherever you find them." 2:190
"God's curse be upon the infidels." 2:89
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment." 2:175
"Say to the unbelievers: ' You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell-an evil resting place!' "3:12

There are countless passages like this in the Qu'ran with very little to offset the holy call to arms against the West.

As we fight the so-called "war on terror", I think that it is important to know what we're up against. Many Muslims danced in the streets after 9/11 and his attack has been both denounced AND justified by Muslim leaders. Both Bush and Clinton are very careful not to say that this is a war against Islam, but I think it is. Was Bush right in saying that 9/11 was only a "fringe form of Islamic extremism." Bush now refers to it as Islamofacism. I'm not sure how much in the fringe it is.

Comparisons with Judaism and Christianity are inevitable, and we can explore them further in this debate. To me, it's apples and oranges. The Age of Enlightenment and John Locke in particular helped redefine Christianity. Most followers today see the Bible as a metaphor. Even the strictest fundamentalist wouldn't advocate sacrificing a first born, avoiding cotton-polyester blends or death to those that work on the Sabbath, but these passages are found in the Bible. The Bible also contains the wonderful Beatitudes and the peace loving writings of Jesus. That counterbalance is almost non-existent in the Qu'ran. Verse after verse of bigotry, hatred and violence against non-Muslims sets the tone for violence.

A future where the West and Islam aren't engaged in a War Without End will only come if the Muslim community can choose to disregard most of the canons of their faith.
The Islamic faith has not had their Enlightenment yet. The Qu'ran is seen as totally divine by many of its followers. It's as if Islam is still in the Middle Ages. Don't forget that in the up until 1834 Christians were still burning heretics in the Spanish Inquisition. And of course there were the Crusades. But Christianity got past that!

It's hard to justify the Crusades with passages from the New Testament, which is the redemption for many of the violent passages contained in the Old Testament. Imagine trying to peacefully coexist with Christians in the 14th Century.

If there is any hope for peace it will come from Muslims that turn away from the strict interpretation of the Qu'ran. We see that a lot in America where secular Muslims coexist with other Americans. Keep in mind that Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world and that approximately one in eight Muslims condoned the terrorism against America on 9/11. If the US can get to the point where oil is worthless, it may force Muslims into moderating their views on global jihad.

Good luck 128shot.

Hipsterdufus

jfuh · 06-17-06, 11:22 AM

Again congratulations for both being choosen as competitors. Also great opening statments. May I remind you that neither of us are allowed participation in the corresponding discussion taking place in the contest portion of this sub thread.

Question 1:
Prescribing islam as a "modern" crusade would be wrong as the muslim world indeed had it's war with the whole of europe around the 15th century and so on taking over nearly all of Europe.
However, as with all violent occurances in human history, there's always a near term spark that ignited the full conflict as well as a long term root which truly created the mentality. To create a better picture of what is happening today we must examine the "root of all evils".

What is the short and long term roots of islamic violence?

Answering begins at 20:00 GMT (3pm EST).
Coin toss, Hip = heads, 128 = tails
And the toss
Heads, Hip will make the first answer.

hipsterdufus · 06-17-06, 02:53 PM

Q: What is the short and long term roots of islamic violence?

For a look at the long term roots of Islamic violence, you need to look no further than the life of the prophet Muhammad himself. In the book “Why I Am Not A Muslim” Ibn Warraq systematically documents Muhammad’s transition from prophet to despot. A look into the life of Muhammad reveals many examples of assassination,war, bribery, polygamy, slavery and poor treatment of women. Furthermore these actions are sanctioned and encouraged in the Qu’ran which acts as the root of modern law in Islam.

Note: Ibn Warraq is a pseudonym, for to write against the faith of Islam is punishable by death and to leave the faith of Islam is also punishable by death. One only has to recall the assassination fatwa ordered against Salman Rushdie to remember this. In my opinion it is the brave writings of people like Ibn Warraq that point the way for a peaceful coexistence between Islam and the West.

Back to Muhammad.

Many scholars usually divide Muhammad’s life into two periods: the “Meccan period” and the “Median period”. Ibn Warraq writes the following:

Quote:

“during the first period, in Mecca, Muhammad was a religiously motivated, sincere seeker of the truth; but in the second period, Muhammad the man shows his feet of clay, and is corrupted by power and worldly ambitions:

“Why I Am Not A Muslim” p 87

One of the first scholarly works on Muhammad was written by Muir between 1856 and 1861 in four volumes. Muir speaks in great detail about Muhammad’s Median period:

Quote:

“Battles were fought, executions ordered, and territories annexed, under cover of the “Almighty’s” sanction.”

Ibid

Quote:

“Intolerance quickly took the place of freedom, force of persuasion. The name of the Almighty imparted a terrible strength to the sword of the State; and the sword of the State yielded a willing return by destroying the “enemies of God” “ Slay the unbelievers wheresoever you find them,” was now the watchword of Islam. “Fight in the ways of God until opposition be crushed and the Religion become the Lord’s alone.”

Ibid

Going back to Muir’s writings, he explains how

Quote:

“Freedom of though and private judgment are crushed and annihilated. Toleration is unknown, and the possibility of free and liberal institutions foreclosed.”

“Why I Am Not A Muslim” p 88

Muir’s final conclusion was as follows:

Quote:

“The sword of Mahomet (Muhammad), and the Coran (Qu’ran) are the most stubborn enemies of Civilization, Liberty, and Truth, which the world has yet known."

Ibid

Another Muslim scholar, Caetani, concludes the following about Muhammad’s plight in Media:

Quote:

“The deterioration of his moral character was a phenomenon supremely human, of which history provides not one but a thousand examples.

Caetani Annali dell’Islam, trans in MW vol vi.

Jumping ahead to the present day, One of the main reasons that Islam has a strong tendency towards violence is that it strives to be a theocracy. Allah is in charge, and he rules through his chosen people. The concept of human rights, and democracy as the West understands it do not apply.

There is also rampant anti-intellectualism in Islam. For example the United Nations Arab Human Development Report 2002 noted that

Quote:

“Spain translates as many books into Spanish each year as the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century.”

The End of Faith – Sam Harris p 133 citing Arab Human Development Report 2002

There is a sense in Islam that all that is needed is found in one book: The Qu’ran. People are praised for their ability to memorize lengthy passages long before they can understand the meaning.

Part of the canon of Islamic faith is the duty of Muslims to fight for God’s community. We know this as a jihad or “holy war” and it is incumbent of faithful Muslims to observe this jihad.

This has lead us into the era where so many Islamists willing to turn themselves into suicide bombers? In the Muslim community they are referred to as “sacred explosions” or martyrs and we all know the promise of meeting 70 virgins in heaven after blowing up innocent civilians all for the sake of Allah. Suicide bombers are even encouraged in Islamic schools!

In Western terms, blowing yourself and as many innocent civilians as you can to smithereens for the sake of God is seen as a career opportunity by the faithful Muslim.

128shot · 06-17-06, 05:31 PM

Q: What is the short and long term roots of islamic violence?

For a close look at the history of "muslim violence" and "islamic extremism" I use 2 sources

"Holy War: The cursades and their impact on today's world" by Karen Armstrong

and

In "Holy War" it gives a detailed explaination of how Mohammed handled himself after being exiled from Mecca

Quote:

At first the Qureish (the ruling class of Mecca) had been patronizing and scornful about Islam but gradually they began to see that it consitututed a political threat to their regime. For how long would a man who claimed that god spoke to him and who condemed their rule as unjust and corrupt be prepared to submit to their government? Mohammed also condemned the Pagan cult of hubal and the idols in the Ka'aba and insistated that it be restored to the faith of Abraham and Ishmael. This would ruin the piligrim trade and could even mean that trade caravans would no longer coverge upon Mecca: it threatened the Whole Meccan wealth and way of life. The Meccans began to perscute Muslims. In particular those muslims who were slaves and women were subjected to torture and inhuman treatment. At one time the Qureish confined muslims to their houses and imposed a Blockade, which cut off their food supplies, and even though the blockade was eventually lifted the muslims had suffered greatly and Khadija and ABu Talib the young Ali's father, both died. There were also frequent attempts on Mohammed's life. and it became clear that the muslims needed a new home, where they had the freedom to think and worship as they chose. They found this home in the year 622 Some hanifs of the settlement of Yathrib, which would later be called Medina, and which is about 240 miles north of Mecca, invited the muslims to settle there. Yathrib was settled by 2 tribes of jews and three tribes of Arabs and there was a struggle for leadership. The jews had recently been expecting a prhopet who promised in their scriptures to lead them to new power. When the hanifs heard about mohammed during their annual pilgrimage to Mecca they assumed he must be the prophet and they decided to win him over to the Arab side. Some seventy hanifs converted to islam and urged the muslims to emigrate to Medina and to take on the leadership this seemed a good solution, though it meant that mohammed had to abandon his own tribe in Mecca. God, however, promised him that he would one day return to his home. Secretly in 2s and 3s the muslims slipped out of mecca and made the journey to medina, mohammed was the last to leave with Abu Bakr, and left just in time to forestall a serious attempt on his life for 2 days he and abu bakr hid in a cave outside the city while the meccans scoured the countryside hutning for the rebelllious prophet. Eventually the fugitives were able to escapse to Medina where they were joyfully recieved by muslims and mohemmed eventually took over the leadership of the city. This hijra or migration of 622 marks the offical beginning of the muslim calender and this journey north would be a formative for the muslims as exodus had been for the jews.