Debate #2 discussion...ToT v Billo - Page 5

jfuh · 05-31-06, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus

My sources are a .gov there is no better source out there.

Actualy, .gov is most representative of governmental propaganda. If you are indeed truly a libertarian you would understand that.
The most reliable sources are from .edu or peer reviewed journals.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-31-06, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

Actualy, .gov is most representative of governmental propaganda. If you are indeed truly a libertarian you would understand that.
The most reliable sources are from .edu or peer reviewed journals.

I call .edu leftwing propaganda so go figure, governmental surveys and censuses are very accurate sir, and I'm a libertarian not an anarchist, learn the difference.

jfuh · 05-31-06, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus

I call .edu leftwing propaganda so go figure, governmental surveys and censuses are very accurate sir, and I'm a libertarian not an anarchist, learn the difference.

There's the key phrase. Your call, not factual call. GUess what, Saudi Arabia, Palestine all have .gov, you think they're not propoganda? I notice you claim them to be accurate, and not factual, I can only assume that even you recognize the propaganda then.
Sorry, from what I've seen of you're partisan, you're far from being libertarian. Dannarhea and Kandahar are libertarians. You're in with the Neocon crowd with Stinger, Navy Pride and so on.

Billo_Really · 05-31-06, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TOT:
My sources are a .gov there is no better source out there.

I'll disagree with you there. If you've ever looked at the government version of Division 16 specifications you would find many references to work being done according to:

NEMA
ANSI
U.L.
IEEE

Just to name a few. The last one in particular, International Electrical and Electronic Engineers Association is one of the more so-called experts in the field of "electricity" with expertise in all it's parts right down to the end user. You wanted a credible, objective, non-partisan, un-biased report of the state of electricity and distribution in Iraq, so here you go.

Quote:

Re-engineering Iraq
By: Glenn Zorpette
U.S. and Iraqi officials have spent billions on restoring Iraq's electrical system. So why is Baghdad getting just 6 hours of electricity a day?

Insurgents were blowing up electrical transmission towers at an average rate of two a day this past August, and Iraqi workers and foreign contractors were risking their lives to put them back up. Throughout reconstruction, projects have gotten funds, lost them, and sometimes even gotten them back again, according to changes in the prevailing political winds. Generating plants have been built that can't be fueled; a water pumping station repaired for $225 million was rendered useless by countless leaks in the pipes connected to it. Five distribution substations were built for $28.8 million, but they'll sit idle for years because the infrastructure to tap into them hasn't been started yet.

In the most recent survey by the International Republican Institute, a prodemocracy advocacy group in Washington, D.C., 2200 Iraqis were asked which of 10 different problems "requiring a political or governmental solution" was most important to them. The first choice, by a margin of about 10 percent, was "inadequate electricity." "National security" came in fifth; the "presence of multinational forces" was seventh; and "terrorists" was eighth.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/feb06/2831

Electrical engineering is what puts food on my table and a roof over my head. It's what I do 40 hours a week for the last 20-25 years. Don't even try to debate me in this area, you've lost before you have ever started.

I will concede political science to you, but electrical stuff is my forte. So pick another topic to debate. You're doomed on this one.

And no, you're not a Libertarian! You silly neo...

Captain America · 05-31-06, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

Sorry, from what I've seen of you're partisan, you're far from being libertarian. Dannarhea and Kandahar are libertarians. You're in with the Neocon crowd with Stinger, Navy Pride and so on.

That was my impression as well. But comparing ToT to NP is quite strong. ToT does have valid points from time to time and shows signs of independant thinking moreso than the other two mentioned.

Further, I am not sure that comparing someone to NP constitutes as "name calling," per se, which is against forum rules, but in the very least it is insulting and in bad taste. Perhaps an apology to ToT is in order jfuh. Let your conscience be your guide.

I'm just saying.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-31-06, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billo_Really

I'll disagree with you there. If you've ever looked at the government version of Division 16 specifications you would find many references to work being done according to:

NEMA
ANSI
U.L.
IEEE

Just to name a few. The last one in particular, International Electrical and Electronic Engineers Association is one of the more so-called experts in the field of "electricity" with expertise in all it's parts right down to the end user. You wanted a credible, objective, non-partisan, un-biased report of the state of electricity and distribution in Iraq, so here you go.Electrical engineering is what puts food on my table and a roof over my head. It's what I do 40 hours a week for the last 20-25 years. Don't even try to debate me in this area, you've lost before you have ever started.

I will concede political science to you, but electrical stuff is my forte. So pick another topic to debate. You're doomed on this one.

Yes we know you're more qualified than the people who work for the DOE, the CIA, and the IAE sure thing.

And umm ya being an electrical engineer has helped you to conduct a survey of electrical output and consumption in Iraq how exactly? That's about the lamest **** I've ever heard.

Quote:

And no, you're not a Libertarian! You silly neo...

God you site an opinion survey give me a freaking break. The fact of the matter (yes the fact) is that energy consumption and production is higher now than before the war and you still have not provided one source to disprove these facts. Let's see an alternative source with power output and consumption levels come on Billo it's on you.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-31-06, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

There's the key phrase. Your call, not factual call. GUess what, Saudi Arabia, Palestine all have .gov, you think they're not propoganda?

Ya umm find me a Saudi Arabian .gov, go a head I'm all eyes.

Quote:

I notice you claim them to be accurate, and not factual, I can only assume that even you recognize the propaganda then.

Yes we know non-partisan governmental sources are propaganda and the U.S. is somehow akin to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan too right.

Quote:

Sorry, from what I've seen of you're partisan, you're far from being libertarian. Dannarhea and Kandahar are libertarians. You're in with the Neocon crowd with Stinger, Navy Pride and so on.

Sorry from what I've seen you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever done a college level research paper? The only online sources that are acceptable are .edu and .gov, I notice you have no problem with Billo using truthout and .com's as his sources, what a ****ing joke, and you accuse me of partisanship and bias? Kettle meet pot. Your double standards are not even that, for those that you agree with you have no standards. If you must know I specifically sought out .gov sources just so that this type of accusation could not be made but it seems that your partisanship is only exceeded by your ignorance of what constitutes a valid source.

Oh and you don't know what a libertarian is either.

Captain America · 05-31-06, 12:41 PM

Well, the news this morning reports a huge wave of bombings, yet again, today.

They also reported that most folks only have 1 to 4 hours of electricity (if any at all) per day and that people have to go to the markets, where many of these killings take place, on a daily basis.

Are you telling me that before we blew Iraq to hell they had even less electricity than they have now? Yes, I believe that is exactly what you said.

Quote:

The fact of the matter (yes the fact) is that energy consumption and production is higher now than before the war

Less than 1-4 hours per day? Wow..............

That just don't add up but then again, I don't have a degree in electrical engineering either.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-31-06, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain America

Well, the news this morning reports a huge wave of bombings, yet again, today.

They also reported that most folks only have 1 to 4 hours of electricity (if any at all) per day and that people have to go to the markets, where many of these killings take place, on a daily basis.

Are you telling me that before we blew Iraq to hell they had even less electricity than they have now? Yes, I believe that is exactly what you said.

Less than 1-4 hours per day? Wow..............

That just don't add up but then again, I don't have a degree in electrical engineering either.

Actually that is exactly what I am saying I provided numerous sources that state quite clearly that Iraqi electrical consumption and production exceeds pre-war levels those are the facts sir.

Quote:

Electricity Consumption
Year Data Source Value Notes
2004 World Factbook (2005) 33.70 TWh -
2003 U.S. DOE (2005) 13.67 TWh (provisional)
2002 U.S. DOE (2005) 27.29 TWh -
2002 IEA (2005) 29.33 TWh -
2001 U.S. DOE (2005) 27.50 TWh -
2001 IEA (2004) 34.93 TWh -
2001 World Factbook (2004) 33.49 TWh -
2000 U.S. DOE (2005) 27.20 TWh

http://www.iaea.org/inis/aws/eedrb/data/IQ-elc.html

Quote:

According to the Iraqi Electricity Minister Mohsen Shalash:

"Now electricity has reached a record after we broke 5,350 megawatts a few days ago for the first time since the war."

This is well above the pre-war levels and the USAID expects the electrical output to reach 6,000 MW within the year.

According to the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) the pre-war electricty output in 2002 was only 4,400 MW. And it was only Baghdad that had continous power, because Saddam was allowing the the basic services to fall into disrepair in order to control the Iraqi populace through strict controls over even the most basic necessities of life.

Quote:

In 2002 Baghdad had access to electricity on a near continuous basis while the rest of Iraq was limited to 3 to 6 hours daily. The U.S. government has made significant progress in improving electricity supply in Iraq and distributing it more equitably throughout the country. USAID has added over 1490 MW of new or rehabilitated capacity to the electrical grid.

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplish...ectricity.html

Captain America · 05-31-06, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus

Actually that is exactly what I am saying I provided numerous sources that state quite clearly that Iraqi electrical consumption and production exceeds pre-war levels those are the facts sir.

That could very well be the facts sir. I truly don't know. I just find it hard to believe that Iraq, even before the war, was living on less than the 1-4 hours of electricity, per day, which they currently have now..

If I were them, I would have been really pissed off.