Debate #2 discussion...ToT v Billo - Page 3

Billo_Really · 05-13-06, 05:19 AM

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BAGHDAD, 3 May (IRIN) - About six million households have suffered regular power shortages since 30 April when insurgents attacked a major power plant supplying the capital, causing serious problems for families without access to private generators.

For three consecutive days, residents of the capital, Baghdad, have received less than one hour of electricity per day. On Tuesday, the Ministry of Electricity said it could take a week or more to restore the power supply to previous levels of about six hours daily.

With summer beginning and temperatures rising, residents are expressing frustration. "I've lost all the meat I had in my refrigerator because my generator's broken," said Baghdad shopkeeper Ahmed el-Zein. "Insurgents attack the plants to hurt the government, but it's the innocent population that suffers."

While hospitals and emergency infrastructure are usually equipped with their own generators, universities and schools – many of which have been without electricity since 30 April – are not. Even the so-called "Green Zone", in which the national government is headquartered, has been subject to frequent power outages.

Some aggravated residents place the blame squarely on the US military, which has occupied the country since early 2003, and the slow pace of US-led reconstruction efforts.

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"US reconstruction companies haven't been unable to restore the power levels maintained under the Saddam Hussein regime," said Mahmoud Hassan, a professor of electrical engineering at Baghdad University. "This has shown up their incompetence ever since they invaded our country."

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In March 2004, one year into the occupation, residents of Baghdad could expect around 16 hours of electricity a day. Two years later, however, this dropped to a mere six hours daily. "At present, Iraq is producing slightly less than 6,000 megawatts per day, which usually falls to about 5,000 in summer due to high consumption rates caused by extensive use of air-conditioning," said senior electricity ministry official Salah Obaid.

A growing market for consumer goods has put more refrigerators and air conditioners into Iraqi homes than ever before. This has led government experts to predict that peak daily demand in the months of July and August – when temperatures soar to 50 degrees centigrade – could reach as high as 9,000 megawatts.

Local engineers say at least two years and massive expenditures will be required to achieve the minimum power levels necessary to support Iraq's 26-million strong population. "Billions of dollars will be required to supply sufficient power," said Hassan. "As for the current shortage, this was the result of bad management – not solely the result of insurgency attacks."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...3d07fe06c7.htm

Like I said, to say they have more power is a joke!

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-14-06, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billo_Really

Like I said, to say they have more power is a joke!

lmfao yes Baghdad is recieving less electricity because now all the power isn't going to Baghdad and nowhere else now the electrical output isn't being used to control the populace and is being distributed more equitably.

From your own damn article:

Quote:

"At present, Iraq is producing slightly less than 6,000 megawatts per day

And guess what? The pre-war power output was 4,400 MW's so your claim that they are not meeting (when they are actually exceeding) pre-war power output is the real joke here.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...a-20040323.pdf

Billo_Really · 05-16-06, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TOT:
And guess what? The pre-war power output was 4,400 MW's so your claim that they are not meeting (when they are actually exceeding) pre-war power output is the real joke here.

My dear esteemed former debate opponant, my point was never about power output. It was about the average Iraqi citizen receiving the power. I can post just as many sources as you can contradicting your assertions on power output. I can post just as many sources that corroborate your position on power output. But you haven't posted one source on the transmission of that power or on the average Iraq receiving more power now than before.

It doesn't matter how much power you put out if you can't distribute it to the end user. You have to have a closed-loop!

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-16-06, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billo_Really

My dear esteemed former debate opponant, my point was never about power output. It was about the average Iraqi citizen receiving the power. I can post just as many sources as you can contradicting your assertions on power output. I can post just as many sources that corroborate your position on power output. But you haven't posted one source on the transmission of that power or on the average Iraq receiving more power now than before.

It doesn't matter how much power you put out if you can't distribute it to the end user. You have to have a closed-loop!

No sir you bolded the parts in the article presented dealing with the overall output not the amount of power recieved by the Iraqi citizenry after the war. I really wish you would, but I posted the amount of electricity consumed by the Iraqi citizenry prior to the war . . . Baghdad Sunni's recieved 24 hour service and the rest of Iraq was relegated to 3-4 hours of sporatic electricity. Shi'ites in the south and the Kurds in the north were deprived services to keep them in line. The U.S. has not only increased electrical output and consumption but we have distributed it more equitably.

Billo_Really · 05-27-06, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TOT:
No sir you bolded the parts in the article presented dealing with the overall output not the amount of power recieved by the Iraqi citizenry after the war. I really wish you would, but I posted the amount of electricity consumed by the Iraqi citizenry prior to the war . . . Baghdad Sunni's recieved 24 hour service and the rest of Iraq was relegated to 3-4 hours of sporatic electricity. Shi'ites in the south and the Kurds in the north were deprived services to keep them in line. The U.S. has not only increased electrical output and consumption but we have distributed it more equitably.

Are you calling 3-4 hours of sporadic electricity a good thing? Are you serious? And tell me specifically how the US has increased consumption?

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-27-06, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billo_Really

Are you calling 3-4 hours of sporadic electricity a good thing? Are you serious? And tell me specifically how the US has increased consumption?

It was 3-4 hours of sporatic electricity prior to the war, learn some reading comprehension, and uh here ya go:

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Electricity Consumption
Year Data Source Value Notes
2004 World Factbook (2005) 33.70 TWh -
2003 U.S. DOE (2005) 13.67 TWh (provisional)
2002 U.S. DOE (2005) 27.29 TWh -
2002 IEA (2005) 29.33 TWh -
2001 U.S. DOE (2005) 27.50 TWh -
2001 IEA (2004) 34.93 TWh -
2001 World Factbook (2004) 33.49 TWh -
2000 U.S. DOE (2005) 27.20 TWh

http://www.iaea.org/inis/aws/eedrb/data/IQ-elc.html

Billo_Really · 05-27-06, 06:41 PM

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Originally posted by TOT:
It was 3-4 hours of sporatic electricity prior to the war, learn some reading comprehension, and uh here ya go:

This is from you comprehensive source...

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We can not make any claims concerning the correctness of these data since we are not affiliated with the data originators.

...you're getting ridiculous dude!

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-27-06, 06:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Billo_Really

This is from you comprehensive source......you're getting ridiculous dude!

They can not make claims on the data because they are not the data organizers, the data organizers are the CIA, the Department of Energy, and the IEA are you calling into question their expertiese in these matters or the validity of their findings? What's ridiculous is the fact that you have no argument and you call into question the validity of my beyond reproach governmental sources when you present truthout sources and the like, please billo spare me the propaganda, Iraqi electrical production and consumption meets and surpasses pre-war levels case closed you lose better luck next time.

Here are my sources that state Iraqi electrical consumption is higher now than at pre-war levels:

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http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
http://www.eia.doe.gov/
http://www.iea.org/Textbase/subjectqueries/index.asp

The question sir is where are your contradictory sources? Face it dude you got nothing save for truthout propaganda.

Billo_Really · 05-30-06, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TOT:
They can not make claims on the data because they are not the data organizers, the data organizers are the CIA, the Department of Energy, and the IEA are you calling into question their expertiese in these matters or the validity of their findings? What's ridiculous is the fact that you have no argument and you call into question the validity of my beyond reproach governmental sources when you present truthout sources and the like, please billo spare me the propaganda, Iraqi electrical production and consumption meets and surpasses pre-war levels case closed you lose better luck next time.

Here are my sources that state Iraqi electrical consumption is higher now than at pre-war levels:

The question sir is where are your contradictory sources? Face it dude you got nothing save for truthout propaganda.

How does that foot taste?

Quote:

New power plant for Sulaimaniya
Azzaman, May 6, 2006

A small-sized power plant has been executed in the Kurdish city of Sulaimaniya with 16-megawatt capacity.

The plant provides electricity for at least 5,000 households in a city of nearly 800,000 inhabitants.

Sulaimaniya is the capital of a province of the same name. It is administered by the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, a Kurdish faction led by Jalal Talabani, currently the President of Iraq.

The $3.4 million project is one of several electrical plants the Kurds are erecting in their areas to ease power shortages.

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Electricity is one of Iraq’s major problems and outages in big cities may last up to 20 hours a day.

Households now mainly rely on diesel-run generators which are only sufficient to power low-voltage bulbs and appliances.

Despite larges-scale investments estimated at hundreds of millions of dollars since the 2003 U.S. invasion, power generation capacity is still less than under the sanctions-hit former regime.

http://www.azzaman.com/english/index...-05-06\173.htm

Do you see this? If you want to know what's going on in Iraq, you don't ask an American, you ask an Iraqi.

I'm still looking for that truthout source you accused me of using, but I haven't found it yet. If you see it, let me know.

Trajan Octavian Titus · 05-30-06, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billo_Really

How does that foot taste? Do you see this? If you want to know what's going on in Iraq, you don't ask an American, you ask an Iraqi.

I'm still looking for that truthout source you accused me of using, but I haven't found it yet. If you see it, let me know.

Do you comprehend English? The fact of the matter is that power exceeds pre-war levels both in production and consumption those are the undisputable facts sir, if I wanted your OPINION or that of an Iraqi's I would have asked for one. You cite no figures or facts to back up your claim, you're right this is getting ridiculous.