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9/11

BmanMcfly said:
The steel went through 'plastic deformation'??

I went over this earlier as well... this article is misrepresenting the purpose of fireproofing in a building. The purpose of fireproofing is little to nothing to do with protecting the structural steel from the fire, but to SLOW DOWN THE SPREAD of the fire to maximize the number of people that can be safely evacuated.
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No, you are misrepresenting the purpose of fireproofing. Fireproofing is placed on structural steel to protect the steel so that it does not deform or buckle before the building can be evacuated. How could fireproofing on STEEL slow down the spread of fire?????

The fireproofing is to prevent, say a metal pipe that passes through a wall... if one side of the wall is in flames without fireproofing the heat would transfer through the metal and potentially start a second fire through contact with the heating pipe.
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Wrong again. Fireproofing is placed in wall openings to prevent the fire from flashing through the wall opening. It has NOTHING to do with protecting the pipe from heat.

I wasn't going to comment here anymore, but your post is so absurd and lacking in knowledge of building design that I had to set the record straight.
 
Gill said:
No, you are misrepresenting the purpose of fireproofing. Fireproofing is placed on structural steel to protect the steel so that it does not deform or buckle before the building can be evacuated. How could fireproofing on STEEL slow down the spread of fire?????
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That's not true at all. I'm sorry, but it's simply not true. The fireproofing is an insulant, It SLOWS, not stops, the spread of fire by preventing the heating of the metal parts of the structure, by acting as a buffer between the flames and the metal. Heat transfers through the steel, so, if you've got flammable materials on both sides of the wall, and one side is on fire, if the metal going through both walls becomes red hot, that heat could transfer through the wall and more quickly start another fire... whereas, with the fireproofing, even if the metal does get red hot, it's only heating the insulation, and has less chance of contacting something combustible on the other side.


Wrong again. Fireproofing is placed in wall openings to prevent the fire from flashing through the wall opening. It has NOTHING to do with protecting the pipe from heat.
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Well, that's half-true. it does prevent the flames from directly crossing rooms, let's say the pipe you're trying to prevent from overheating is a gas line... you'd DEFINATELY want to stop that pipe from heating to the point that the pipe explodes for at least an hour or two. (Although gas lines have built in protections so that if the gas inside ignites the flow is shut off) The fire codes are there to maximize on the number of people that can escape the blaze and not to protect the building, since in a flame the building is typically wrote-off.

I wasn't going to comment here anymore, but your post is so absurd and lacking in knowledge of building design that I had to set the record straight.
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Oh... I'm sorry that what I learned when I was INSTALLING fireproofing on steel frrame buildings for over six months when I first started in construction... and I'd ask questions about why we had to add the level of fireproofing. I suspect the people like the foremen and even the building inspectors might have an idea as to the 'why' things are done the way they are.

I'm not talking out of my 455, I'm talking out of experience in fireproofing specifically. I also happen to trust the foremen and building inspectors (aside from talking to other trades people... I would find a building inspectors opinions more trustworthy than the shills that worked for NIST.
 
BmanMcfly said:
That's not true at all. I'm sorry, but it's simply not true. The fireproofing is an insulant, It SLOWS, not stops, the spread of fire by preventing the heating of the metal parts of the structure, by acting as a buffer between the flames and the metal. Heat transfers through the steel, so, if you've got flammable materials on both sides of the wall, and one side is on fire, if the metal going through both walls becomes red hot, that heat could transfer through the wall and more quickly start another fire... whereas, with the fireproofing, even if the metal does get red hot, it's only heating the insulation, and has less chance of contacting something combustible on the other side.
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It does NOT slow the spread of fire. It slows the transfer of heat to the structural steel.

Fireproofing of steel has NOTHING to do with concerns about starting new fires from the hot steel.

Well, that's half-true. it does prevent the flames from directly crossing rooms, let's say the pipe you're trying to prevent from overheating is a gas line... you'd DEFINATELY want to stop that pipe from heating to the point that the pipe explodes for at least an hour or two. (Although gas lines have built in protections so that if the gas inside ignites the flow is shut off) The fire codes are there to maximize on the number of people that can escape the blaze and not to protect the building, since in a flame the building is typically wrote-off.
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Gas lines do not require fireproofing.

Oh... I'm sorry that what I learned when I was INSTALLING fireproofing on steel frrame buildings for over six months when I first started in construction... and I'd ask questions about why we had to add the level of fireproofing. I suspect the people like the foremen and even the building inspectors might have an idea as to the 'why' things are done the way they are.

I'm not talking out of my 455, I'm talking out of experience in fireproofing specifically. I also happen to trust the foremen and building inspectors (aside from talking to other trades people... I would find a building inspectors opinions more trustworthy than the shills that worked for NIST.
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Yeah, I can tell from your comments that you are a fireproofing expert. :roll:
 
Gill said:
It does NOT slow the spread of fire. It slows the transfer of heat to the structural steel.
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But WHY??? I'll just edit what you said next

concerns about starting new fires from the hot steel.
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Gas lines do not require fireproofing.
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1 - Gas lines are always going to be hidden, either by a drywalled cieling (1 hr fire rating) OR with tiled ceiling (ALSO 1 hour fire rating)
2 - Whenever the gas line travels through a wall, that wall gets fireproofed.


Yeah, I can tell from your comments that you are a fireproofing expert. :roll:
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ANd I can tell from your post that you couldn't determine an 'expert' either way... which I never claimed to be 'expert' I claimed to have DIRECT knowledge of the process as well as the WHY of the process, I mean, I can tell you the process and the why of much of an electricians work as well, that doesn't make me an expert... at best that might make me a good apprentice.

Once the building has been evacuated, the fireproofing has done it's job. Highrise fires are supposedly VERY difficult to put out. Well regardless of how the fireproofing performed, a building suffering fire damage MUST be repaired, or torn apart and rebuilt REGARDLESS of how the fireproofing performed... whereas any casualty in a fire is a potential liability... if only a liability to the insurance company.
 
BmanMcfly said:
But WHY??? I'll just edit what you said next
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I've already said why. To prevent heat from damaging the steel, causing it to buckle before people can be evacuated.

1 - Gas lines are always going to be hidden, either by a drywalled cieling (1 hr fire rating) OR with tiled ceiling (ALSO 1 hour fire rating)
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No, they are not always hidden. I see exposed gas lines every day.

2 - Whenever the gas line travels through a wall, that wall gets fireproofed, not the gas line.
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And... the hole through the wall is fireproofed, not the gas line.
 
Gill said:
I've already said why. To prevent heat from damaging the steel, causing it to buckle before people can be evacuated.



No, they are not always hidden. I see exposed gas lines every day.



And... the hole through the wall is fireproofed, not the gas line.
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Yes you are correct on the reason for fireproofing steel supports, etc.

The buisiness I am in is steel stud framing and drywall. Both light gauge interior wall framing and structural steel interior and exterior wall stud framing and parapit wall framing. Also we construct the steel soffets around heat ducts, pipes, or just cosmetic, etc.

We go in a building right after the structural red iron and concrete spans are in place and frame up the wall studs attaching them to the red iron steel structure frame and concrete.

After each floor of framing is done we drywall some of the two hour fire blocks above ceiling grid, behind where showers and tubs are to be installed, etc. and fire caulk and fire tape any seams or gaps.

Then after the electricians and plumbers etc are done on each floor my company goes in and insulates and puts on vapor barriers on exterior walls and also insulate and install sound channel or add channel on party walls, bathroom walls, and ceilings where applicable.

Then my business installs the type "X" sheetrock on most interior walls and type "C" sheetrock on fire rated walls and ceilings sometimes double or triple layered rock depending on building design and codes for the region.

Then my company does all the finish taping and fire taping on the interior walls and fire breaks above ceiling grid and fire caulks around any penetrations of the fire rated walls.

We also build chases that encase pipes. ducts, lines, etc. that penetrate vertically through the floors. Usually these chases are built with 3 layers of sheetrock (again depends on building design and area codes). 1 layer of 1" sheetrock framed in with steel "H" channel and then 2 layers of 5/8" "C" Board sheetrock.
 
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Gill said:
I've already said why. To prevent heat from damaging the steel, causing it to buckle before people can be evacuated.
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Ok, I see your point... the difference is that we're talking about different types of structures. The type of structure that might 'buckle' Is when the concrete is sitting on a truss system... but, in this case The truss system must be fully coating in fireproofing, but this is just as much to slow down the heat transference going through the floors, so people trying to get out don't have their shoes melt kinda thing.

No, they are not always hidden. I see exposed gas lines every day.
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Again, this depends on the structure, You're right that gas lines generally are exposed. I was thinking of very specific instances (in an apartment building, with gas bbq and other then the connection the gas line was hidden by drwall or going through concrete... which at the least was more esthetics for that circumstance)

And... the hole through the wall is fireproofed, not the gas line.
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[/quote]

Which is a perfect illustration, the assumption is that the fires don't get hot enough to buckle and melt the gas lines, water pipes, etc. It is firestopped at all wall intersections to precent the fire from spreading. (You have to cover EVERY screw with dryall mud as well for the same reason, the screw gets red hot and adds to wearing down the effect of the insulations firestopping use) . I know this is simplistic, but take a piece of paper and heat it, once it gets too hot flame bursts on the other side, it's the same principle, once the wall gets heated through it's firestopping usefulness, it'll get through the wall...

Point being, it's to protect the people in the building when the fire starts, and not to protect the building that, if there is a fire is already badly damaged.

Edit : creative yes, that's precisely the steps. you said it more concisely, but the answer is 'It depends'. Garbage shutes at a building I worked on had fire-caulking between the tracks, and the sttud, then the 1 1/2 inch 'core board' then fibreglass insulaation, and another 3 sheets of drywall on that with another round of fire-caulking on the second sheet.

The logic being that if there is a fire in the garbage shute it's likely to be grease fire, and is more likely to burn through different floors, and so needed a 4 and a half hour rating.

I don't see why the argument here though... because the reality is, the fire-rating is to minimize casualties... the state of the building after depends on how far it manages to spread and how quick firefirghters work their magic.
 
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Building #7 went from this damage to one of the first symetrical steel structure collapses in the history of earth without controlled demolition..?

gz_hd1391p36.jpg


wtc7collapse.gif


wtc7_cbs.gif


This building took up a full city block in floor space...watch cbs news...
 
Look at the melted steel in the upper left of this photo from the WTC1 WTC2, Building#7 site

10697258-L.jpg


If this photo can be tracked back to its origin and proved to be untouched then it is concrete evidence of thermite used on the steel supports...

Yes steel can weeken and bend at below melting temps, but reaching the actual melting temps are always a scientific fact to remain the same point for each type of steel...

The highest temp that jet fuel can burn in its purest form is 1830f

The melting point of steel is 2550f

Case closed if this is untampered photo......
 
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creativedreams said:
Building #7 went from this damage to one of the first symetrical steel structure collapses in the history of earth without controlled demolition..?

gz_hd1391p36.jpg
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Is this the picture that people love to show from the other angle to make it look like the gash half as big as the building?
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Is this the picture that people love to show from the other angle to make it look like the gash half as big as the building?
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Yes, they use the images of a dust cloud covering half the building of this same spot after the WTC collapse at an angle to look like it was half the building.

7graph.jpg
 
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Bodhisattva said:
If they were going to blow up the buildings anyway, why fly them directly into some "secret" computer rooms?
What exactly is the point that you are trying to make here, anyway?
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GTFO now. For your own good. People are inferring that 9/11 was a hoax because an atomic bomb leveled 95% of the buildings in an area. Please run Bodhi.

*tosses some rope an yells "geet en ze choppppaaaahhhh!"
 
EgoffTib said:
GTFO now. For your own good. People are inferring that 9/11 was a hoax because an atomic bomb leveled 95% of the buildings in an area. Please run Bodhi.

*tosses some rope an yells "geet en ze choppppaaaahhhh!"
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People talk about Atomic Bombs? Where do you see anyone on this site posting that crap?

Must be some fellow acid users you know...;)
 
EgoffTib said:
GTFO now. For your own good. People are inferring that 9/11 was a hoax because an atomic bomb leveled 95% of the buildings in an area. Please run Bodhi.

*tosses some rope an yells "geet en ze choppppaaaahhhh!"
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I just want a fricking straight and logical answer to this retarded "secret room" ****! :rofl

Why fly two planes directly into the area of the building where the "secret cpu rooms" are if they were going to blow up the buildings anyway? This makes as much sense as... well, something that doesn't make sense.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I just want a fricking straight and logical answer to this retarded "secret room" ****! :rofl

Why fly two planes directly into the area of the building where the "secret cpu rooms" are if they were going to blow up the buildings anyway? This makes as much sense as... well, something that doesn't make sense.
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It is believed that homing devises were in both secured computer rooms and acted as auto-pilot to be sure the planes did find and hit their targets.

Do you realize we just happend to lose ALL 7 World Trade Center Buildings that day?
 
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lol....
These conspiracy theory's are just nutz! Everyone knows Saddam did it! He did do it right? Don't tell me this war was for NOTHING!

:doh
 
Smurf said:
lol....
These conspiracy theory's are just nutz! Everyone knows Saddam did it! He did do it right? Don't tell me this war was for NOTHING!

:doh
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Yes most conspiracy theory's are crazy but please do a little more research on this one and the many amazing coincidences before you spew words of ignorance.....;)
 
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