mogur

Look, Tucker, I have no interest in a debate on semantics, I am more interested in getting to the bottom of the Anthrax Terrorism. Dr. Ivins certainly had mental challenges. I have been mentioning them in most of my posts. The deal is that he had been able to lead a socially fulfilled life by taking care of his 'challenges', until pushed over the edge by government harassment. My wife is bipolar and is a total nutcase without proper treatment. She knows this, is honest and open about it, and is very careful to maintain her schedule of medications, allowing us to have a perfectly happy and normal private and social life. If we were to be subjected to the same pressures placed on the Ivins' family, I can not say for sure that either of us wouldn't display some bizarre behavior, but it certainly wouldn't be fair to accuse either of us of being a lifelong wacko nutcase due to a breakdown under pressure. I think Dr. Ivins deserves credit for being able to handle his handicaps and lead a fairly normal life. Whether he has a dark side hidden beneath is the real question, one that relying on FBI misinformation will not uncover.

Tucker Case

I wasn't trying to cause a semantical debate. I was just pointing out how that statement had to have been interpreted for it to have any meaning in the discussion.

Nobody with an IQ < 75 would have been capable of the anthrax attacks in the first place. So the only correct interpretation of "mentally challenged" would have been the one I gave.

I personally do not have nearly enough information about the subject to have an opinion of Ivins' guilt or innocence.

mogur

Grin, I was only playing DeeJay for his playing of Gladiator's typo...

I was rolling on the floor.

mogur

Disclaimer: I know that most people have more important crap to deal with than the Ivins' case. He was loony, case closed. My pedantic postings are neither meant to garner suspicion of the government, attract interest in the case, nor self-aggrandize (well....). Those purposes would be better served by grandiose shocking headlines and tantalizing teasers, similar to what we see every night on TV news. All I want to accomplish is put the gory details down in a public place for those few who might already have a suspicion that the government might possibly be misleading us, and save a few from rehashing the same details I have pursued. Those who fully accept the government story should save themselves the effort of reading my long ass 'posts of drivel'.

Fairfax, Cumberland, and Elkton? That doesn't even rhyme with Frederick.
No, that is definitely NOT reasonable to conclude. If this 'small population' of suspect envelopes was only found in three of the 40,000 post offices in the US, why can the FBI conclude that they can broaden that distribution of envelopes to all offices that the Dulles SDO covers, but not further broaden it to cover the distribution area of the supplier to Dulles SDO? But wait, now they can narrow their 'reasonably concluded' area down to one single post office that is nearest to one of the sixteen labs handling RMR-1029. How convenient, or should I say laughable. They imply that they did not find one single envelope with the identifying defects at the Frederick Post Office, but they can broaden their search to cover a two-state area, and then narrow it back down to include only one that is both in the broadened distribution area and near one of the sixteen labs. How about mentioning that Elkton, Md is only only 80 miles from Trenton, NJ, where the actual mailings took place? That seems a little more solid than a post office where they did NOT find a suspect envelope, near the only lab (of 16 possible labs) within their carefully chosen distribution area. That can't be mentioned, of course, because Elkton is a two hour drive from Frederick, but only an hour and a half from Princeton.

mogur

Ok, smartypants, what labs near Trenton handled the RMR-1029 strain of anthrax?

Answer: I don't know, for national security reasons, the feds won't tell us what labs specifically were linked to that strain. But I do know that there is little reason to not suspect any decent bio-lab, since the government is trying to claim that just about any biologist can create trillion spore per gram friable dry anthrax with just a lyophilizer. Any anthrax strain, like RMR-1029 is similar to the yeast in a sourdough start. You just grab a tiny little smear and grow it easily on (or in, if liquid,) culture media, and you're ready to use it (or share it). I certainly do not imply any culpability in the attacks, but just a cursory google search turns up a Bio Security Level 3 lab in Lionville, Pa, between Elkton, Md where some of the suspected envelopes were actually found, and Trenton, NJ, where the anthrax letters were actually mailed. Lionville is a PA state lab that analyzed a sample from a recent case of anthrax inhalation. It is an hour drive to either Trenton or Elkton from the lab.

The point here is to not implicate Lionville, but to show that the claim that RMR-1029 is a smoking gun is faulty. Guns can not be cloned at 16 different labs by hundreds of different individuals. And even if they could, how would you know beyond a reasonable doubt that the "universe of people" that had one of these guns are all eliminated as suspects, since any one of them could pass on another clone of the murder weapon, and simply not tell the authorities? But the fact that the FBI is attempting to pass off that myth, indicates more about their confidence in our gullibility, than their prowess as investigators, imho.

Their claim that there will always be "a spore on the grassy knoll", rings of an attempt to laugh at anyone attempting to question the official story. But, since they feel that it is necessary to belittle that dissension, it may stand more as a mark to their lack of confidence in their own case.

mogur

From almost the start of the investigation, the FBI profile of the attacker was a loner with a grudge against a government agency. Ivins didn’t fit that profile, so a motive needed to be constructed to tie Ivins to the murders. Within days of his death, officials anonymously spread the rumor that Ivins’ motive was to test his vaccine.
Only problem with that particular theory is that none of the victims had taken an anthrax vaccine. Oh, well, they’re officials, not geniuses. Another motive has to appear soon to keep the ball rolling, though, and it soon does-
USAMRIID states that Ivins, at the time of his death was receiving $2000 a year in royalties. I think a civil servant scientist, happily driving a faded 20 year old van, and living in a modest home, is unlikely to be a money-grubbing murderer. Hm, if money is the motive, wouldn’t the people making the REAL money be more likely? The Carlyle Group’s BioPort, DynaVax, VaxGen, Cipro manufacturer Bayer, Rumsfeld’s Gilead, are all feeding off the Bush administration’s project Bio Shield, funded by 21 billion taxpayer dollars. If Ivins somehow tapped into the big money, it certainly didn’t show in his lifestyle. And at 62 years of age, it is unlikely he was saving it for a rainy day.



Ivins was assigned by his superiors in the army to work to help get BioPort’s vaccine approved by the FDA. This was not ‘his’ vaccine. He didn’t much like BioPort or its vaccine, in spite of being assigned to help with its approval. In fact, his professional reputation was related much more to BioPort’s competitor, VaxGen, and his own vaccine. He wasn’t struggling to find more work. He had his hands full, and was actually the most interested in identifying the mechanism used by the bacteria Bacillus anthracis to produce toxin. Studying the antigen stimulation response to those toxins was a secondary interest to him. Neither of these passions was a motive to commit mass murder. And it certainly was not a motive of a “revenge killer”.

mogur

The meat of the case against Ivins rests on Jean Duley's shoulders. Haigwood's claim of being 'stalked' by Ivins is rather subjective. You normally don't return letters, phone calls, and e-mail to a stalker.

Jean Carol Duley was born on March 31, 1963. She spent her early childhood in several Southeast Asia countries as a result of her father's diplomatic work. They returned to the upper class Chevy Chase, Md. area and Jean attended Walt Whitman High School in the late 1970's in Bethesda, Md. She claims that she dropped out of Whitman due to her involvement with drugs, mainly cocaine. By 1984 she had obtained her GED and was working as a warranty manager at a car dealership. She marries William A. Duley and adopted a biker lifestyle. In the midst of heavy drug use, she and William filed for ex parte injunction against William's ex-wife, Robin Lynn Duley, and her boyfriend, Richard Dale Johnson in July, 1990. William sued for permanent custody of his and Robin's child in November, which is granted in February, 1991.

Things soon started falling apart between Jean and William, and she filed 3 counts of battery against him in March, 1992. Two months later, Williams filed for divorce against Jean. In October, 1992, Jean had a citation for paraphernalia /with intent to use dismissed. By 1993 Jean claims that she had hit a bottom when she woke up in the SE lockup in Wash DC, and couldn't remember how she got there. She resolved to fight her addictions and moved into a half-way house in Montgomery County, where she lived for 18 months.

By March, 1994, William Duley was granted a final divorce decree from Jean. She then said that she went through several relapses and recoveries. She married Thomas John Wittman about that time, and by October, 1995, was charged with dui and causing a non-injury accident due to excessive speed. She hired Frank Cornelius as an attorney and he got the dui dropped for a guilty plea on the failure to avoid collision charge. In February, 1999, she was again charged with dui, crossing the centerline, and no registration. Her attorney, Reginald Bours, got all charges dropped in return for a lesser charge of impaired driving.

Three weeks later, in March, 1999, Thomas Wittman filed for divorce against Jean Wittman, and it was granted two months later. In July, Jean co-sponsored the 1st annual clean and sober bikers event (in Frederick), Easier Riders, where she was interviewed by the Washington Post and revealed much of the background on her life. In September, 1999, Frederick Memorial Hospital sued her for $1080.73, and the courts granted her a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Soon after that, Jean entered Frederick Community College where she studied to become an addictions counselor.

In 2002, Duley was cited for no headlights. In 2003, she was in an injury accident and pled guilty to the charge of failure to avoid collision due to speed. In 2005, she was cited for running a stop sign. In April, 2006, she was charged with dui, unsafe lane change, no registration, impaired alcohol, and impaired drugs. Her attorney, Mary Drawbaugh, the same attorney who questioned Duley at the Ivins peace order hearing, defended her at a jury trial for these charges. They were all dropped for a reduced charge of reckless driving, with a $580 fine. She graduated in late 2007 from Hood's College (where she made the Dean's list), with a bachelor's degree in Social Work (BSW). In January, 2008 she started working at Comprehensive Counseling Associates, and became a certified supervised counseler in alcohol/drugs (BSW CSC-AD). In other words, she is an addictions counselor trainee, with mandated close supervision by a certified counselor.

Just prior to that, however, on December 23, 2007, Duley is charged with dui, impaired alcohol, and no headlights (on the highway). Mary Drawbaugh once again defended Duley, who pled guilty to the dui on April 24, 2008. The lesser charges were dropped, and Duley was sentenced to 90 days house arrest, with permission to travel directly to work and back. The Judge backdated the start of the house arrest to 4/17/2008, so Duley was released from it on or about July 16, 2008. Bruce Ivins was referred to Duley after a four week detox/rehab stay at the Massie Unit of the Finan Center in Cumberland, Md, on (or about) May 26, 2008. This implies the the entire time that Ivins was being counseled for addictions recovery by Duley, she was was under house arrest. Her claimed six month experience with Ivins is highly questionable, due to his four week stay at Finan Center in May, and a previous four week stay at Surburban Hospital in Bethesda, Md. in March-April.

I am not saying that Jean Duley is anything other than a fine human being. Her brushes with the law, and problems with addictions, are only brought up here for a fuller understanding of her ability, both as a professional, and as a person, to judge Ivins' mental state and his danger to others. Personally, I admire her achievements in the face of her adversities, and her commitment to help others. But it is only fair to know the background of someone whose statements have been so widely used to destroy another person's entire life achievements. She, of course, should not be held accountable for the media circus that has ensued since her testimony. In fact, she pleaded that the account she was about to present to the court be held in closed session. She wants us now to think that this was to protect Ivins' privacy, but it seems obvious to me that her request for privacy was out of fear of retaliation from Ivins. While I believe her fear of Ivins was real, the actual danger to her from Ivins is another question, which I will try to pursue shortly.

Her testimony was completely non-adversarial, and mostly un-cooberated hearsay. She has gone into hiding, and no verification has been forthcoming from her, her supervisor(s), or even the FBI. Therefore, her background is certainly fair, pertinent, and even essential for a chance of uncovering the truth about Ivins behavior and intentions.

mogur

Paraphrasing (for brevity) the Q&A between Duley and her attorney, Mary Drawbaugh-

1. I am Program Director of the Frederick Psychiatric Center, running group and individual therapeutic sessions.
She was an entry level trainee addictions counselor at a private counseling company, running a sobriety class while under house arrest for drunk driving.

2. The FBI informed me that the respondent was involved in serious federal crimes and their investigation resulted in a subpoena for me to testify before a federal grand jury.
The FBI scared the crap out of her by saying that the respondent was a serial mass murderer, and that they wanted her to help nail him.

3. I have been very cooperative with the FBI.
Screw that counselor confidentiality crap.

4. I have been seeing the respondent once a week in group and once every two weeks in individual sessions for six months.
She became a counselor six months ago. Ivins was referred to her sobriety class upon release from rehab on 5/28/2008, just a month and a half before she had him committed.

5. Respondent has made threats to my personal safety in the course of those six months.
I can’t argue this statement, since I wasn’t there, but a little more detail would have been helpful. Did he want her to pull his finger, or skin her alive? See response number 9, below.

6. On July 9th, respondent was extremely agitated and out of control in group. He described to the group a very long and detailed homicidal plan and intention. He had bought a bulletproof vest and had obtained a gun to kill his co-workers. Since he was about to be indicted on capital murder charges, he was going to go out in a blaze of glory and take everybody out with him. He had been roaming the streets of Frederick trying to pick a fight with somebody so he could stab him; he wasn’t going to be taken out without a fight. I knew him so well that I knew he plots and plans, so I tried to get as much detail as possible. He described what he was going to do at his place of employment in detail.
How in the world did Ivins know that an indictment for murder was imminent? Duley claims she wasn’t contacted by the FBI until after that class, so she couldn’t have told him. Ivins’ attorney, Paul Kemp, adamantly claims that up until the day of Ivins’ death, neither he, nor Ivins knew about the grand jury. The FBI, or even a federal prosecutor, can not bring an indictment in a capital murder case. Federal grand juries meet in closed session and only the FBI, DOJ, and subpoenaed witnesses would be aware of them. Unless there was an intentional leak, there’s no way Ivins could possibly know about a grand jury, and even then, it was not true that an indictment was imminent. After all, Duley claims she was subpoenaed to appear more than three weeks after Ivins’ rant. The search of Ivins’ house on the 12th of July did turn up a bullet-proof vest, and quite a variety of ammunition. But no gun was found, and the bullets were consistent with his hobby of target shooting. One of Ivins’ forum posts referred to the TV reality show, The Mole. In that post, Ivins described his wish to poke the mole’s eyes out, and cut his throat. That was obviously an attempt by Ivins to shock the forum’s readers, but it also indicates that he may well have talked about roaming the streets of Frederick, looking for someone to stab in his July 9th class. It is likely he was having either a neurotic or psychotic episode, and was venting his frustration at the unrelenting investigation. The doctors did release Ivins to the public on the same day that Duley was filing this petition, after two weeks of psychiatric evaluation. Obviously, that evaluation failed in its determination that Ivins was not a danger to himself (unless, of course it wasn’t a suicide). In any case, Duley’s fear for her own safety certainly was not trivial, or unfounded.

7. I contacted both of his attorneys and the Frederick Police Department. They went to his place of employment and picked him up, and had him committed to Frederick Memorial Hospital.
How did Duley know about Ivins’ attorneys? And why would she warn them that she just turned their client in?

8. He was transported the following day to Sheppard Pratt high security and put on homicidal and suicidal watch. On July 16th he was supposed to have a permanent commitment hearing. On the advice of his attorneys, he avoided a permanent commitment hearing by having himself voluntarily placed.
How did Duley know about matters pertaining to attorney/client privilege? From Maryland’s assisted treatment laws- Since a permanent commitment hearing can only be scheduled after an involuntary commitment, Duley’s assertion that a hearing was scheduled for July 16th means that either a) Ivins was involuntarily committed, b) the hearing was illegally scheduled, c) Duley was fibbing, or d) someone lied to Duley. In any case, voluntarily admitting yourself actually extends your stay, and increases your chances of permanent commitment; it is not the get out of jail free card that Duley implies, which she should know as the 'Program Director of Frederick Psychiatric Center'.

9. The respondent left me two phone messages from Frederick Memorial Hospital at 4:25am and 4:28am, on July 11th. They were sort of a ranting, blaming me for having done this to him. He was saying that obviously we no longer have a therapeutic relationship, and how could I do this to him? The FBI has that tape because they need to enter it into evidence for the grand jury hearing.
Ivins was pissed that she had him committed, which ended his career in disgrace. He thought that she was helping the FBI to frame him. The fact that he didn’t say that he was going to tear her from limb to limb I think shows unusual restraint. The third phone message at 11:25am July 11th from Sheppard Pratt was described by Duley elsewhere as chilling, that Ivins coldly thanked her for ruining his life. Even after Duley turned him in, an obvious, direct threat was not made. A patient under psych evaluation, and put on ‘high security, homicidal and suicidal watch’ would be hard pressed to make threatening phone calls at 4:30 in the morning, anyway. Did the hospitals give Ivins a room phone and a phone book to look up Duley’s work number? Why didn’t the FBI release the transcripts of these calls when presenting their ‘evidence’, if it was helpful to their case?

10. As far back as 2000, the respondent has attempted to murder several other people, either through poisoning, he is a revenge killer when he feels slighted, especially towards women. He plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killing. He has been forensically diagnosed by several top psychiatrists as a sociopathic, homicidal killer. And I have that in evidence. I do have, and through my working with him, I also believe that to be very true.
An anonymous counselor from Duley’s company claims that in 2000, Ivins told her that he plotted to poison a woman that he was infatuated with if she lost a soccer game. He traveled to that game with some poison, but since she won, he didn’t go ahead and kill her. This anonymous counselor reported it to the police, but without any evidence, and not even a name of the woman, they couldn’t charge Ivins with plotting to possibly attempt murder. It is hard for me to believe that this counselor would make up such a lie, because I see absolutely no motive for her to lie. Therefore, I believe her story is probably true. But that still doesn’t make Ivins’ story true. Ivins is odd in some respects, and I think telling horrible, sadistic stories to counselors (and internet forum people) is one of his quirks. Or, I could be wrong and Ivins is the anthrax killer. But for Duley to claim he attempted to murder ‘several other people’ (other than who?), she must either be embellishing on the one poison story, or Ivins told some other stories not mentioned by anyone. A revenge killer does not kill people that he has never met, such as the anthrax killings. Greed, religion, or politics (not revenge) is a motive for terror type mass murders. Several top psychiatrists did not diagnose Ivins as sociopathic. That term isn’t even used professionally nowadays, and Ivins was the opposite of someone who has an Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD), since they are incapable of any sustained altruistic behavior. Dedicated, long term church/charity volunteers, and mentors can be evil, but they are the antithesis of someone with APD. A diagnosis of being a homicidal killer is equally impossible. You can diagnose someone who has homicidal thoughts, or has homicidal tendencies, but the only way you can diagnose someone as a killer is to witness an act of murder (or have compelling evidence, at least). Several top psychiatrists, not named, diagnoses not in evidence, yet claimed to be in evidence, is just so much more of Duley’s paranoid exaggerations. And to top off the cake, Duley, an expert in the psychiatric field (did I mention she was the Program Director of the Frederick Psychiatric Center?) weighs in on Ivins’ diagnoses, herself.

11. I am fearful for my personal safety, and so is the FBI. I’ve requested protection of the FBI, but they will be following him, and can’t offer any protection for me. They very much suggested that I get a protection order. I am scared to death.
They were scaring the pants off Duley to get her to enter non-adversarial hearsay into the court record. They were the ones that gave Duley the history of Ivins’ stalking, obsessive, murderous history reaching all the way back to his college days. They, and only they, could have told her that he was going to be indicted on 5 capital murders. These are the same clowns that offered reward money to Ivins’ son, showed autopsy photos of anthrax victims to Ivins’ daughter, told Ivins’ wife he was a murderer in public, and drove over Hatfill’s foot. Then they call Duley up, tell her that the homicidal killer is being released, and that they can’t protect her. But a ‘peace order’ petition would? Yeah, this terrorist wouldn’t want to risk violating a peace order. It would surely make him stop and think how wrong he has behaved and it surely would stop him from having revengeful thoughts. Or not. Maybe he would simply break off their ‘therapeutic relationship’, and berate her for ruining his life. Oh yeah, that’s right, he already did that. Never mind. I don’t blame Duley for being scared to death; the FBI doesn’t need her anymore, and if she’s smart, she won’t say anything that screws up the FBI’s postmortem case against Ivins. The FBI doesn’t like their butts uncovered.

DeeJayH

so who is winning the debate

mogur or mogur?

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mogur

How ya doing, DJ? I thought tinfoil was required in this forum.

What debate? I'm just talking to myself. And answering. Debating myself would be insane. And it takes up less space on my hard drive to store this crap here on DP's server, wink.