Fiddytree

Boy that really responds to what I was saying, doesn't it.

PNAC was practically Bill Kristol with a fax machine and two employees renting out office space from AEI, faxing Cheney and Rumsfeld policy ideas asking if they would support policy recommendations.

It's not that sinister, really. Kristol and a few others saw the potential threat that may occur and came up with a way to respond to the unipolar moment. Buy Present Dangers to understand it a bit more. Think of it like Robert Blackwill and Albert Carnesale's New Nuclear Nations. The difference was that PNAC said with some doubt that American foreign policy would shift directions short of some terrible event happening.

But I suppose stating the obvious truth makes one liable for allowing or creating the threat, doesn't it?

Gladiator

PNAC

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who planted the Thermite/Termate at the WTC for 9-11? I see the Neocons trying to cover up the facts that indicate that Thermite/Thermate was used in WTC, 9-11.

The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians.




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Fiddytree

Oh lord. I know what PNAC is. I also know what AEI and the Heritage Foundation are.

I get it now.

You just like to link to stuff without really addressing the point. Previously I asked several times to ask where some Neocon conspiracy came from, and the efforts to deny the truth, given that Neocons are practically silent when it comes to 911 conspiracy theories in the first place. You don't really have any links to support the idea that there is some sort of Neocon overreach getting their hands dirty with 9/11 conspiracy or theories to deny thermite (I have yet to read a Neocon article or publicized work getting deep in the details of the attack, rather than the policy recommendations after the event), but it sounds good to group everyone as Neocons..because a minority in politics must be overblown to create the evil sinister aura.

"The Neocon movement supporting War in Iraq also included Zionists and Anti-Palestinian Christians."

So? This must be where you again throw in buzzwords and spooky pseudo-hate speech to try to make a point where you have none.

Ethereal

Perhaps you should pay more attention. Website claims...

This is false. Furthermore, the website, if it had actually bothered to do any real research, would have found that other factors compounded the fire which consequently increased its maximum potential temperature.

It may not be your cup of tea but I find voluminous amounts of data to be far more compelling than flash videos with spooky music.

It didn't say 5,000 C. It said 7,000 C. More importantly, when you're going to make claims that the United States Government was complicit in the worst terrorist attack in American history then you might want avoid typos if you wish to be taken seriously. It seems unlikely that anyone besides a rank amateur would have missed such a blatant error. Furthermore, the source data does not contradict the official version of 9/11, so your point is moot.

I believe everything except the emboldened portion of your rant, and I see you are not contesting the website's utter lack of credibility - wise choice. Also, the statement, "(FBI admits no hard evidence links him to 9/11)" is loaded as it somehow implies there is no direct or indirect evidence which links Bin Laden to 9/11.

There is a specific difference between hard evidence (fingerprints, DNA, video), direct evidence (confession), and indirect evidence (association). The lack of hard evidence does not negate the presence of direct and indirect evidence implicating Bin Laden in the 9/11 attacks.

In the land of paranoia there is no such thing as coincidence.

If you are truly interested in finding answers to these questions then perhaps you should conduct some real research. Have you ever actually analyzed the prodigious amount of studies and data that pertains to 9/11 or do you merely take every conspiracy theorist's claim at face value? If you are actually interested in the truth then peruse this at length as you will surely find an answer to every question you have in regards to 9/11...

NIST and the World Trade Center

Gladiator

1000 Degrees Kelvin is 1340 Degrees Fahrenheit.

What is misleading, is that fires are ordinarily on the surface of a pile of rubble, and are fed oxygen from the air on the surface.

The USGS survey gives the idea that the only fires, were fires on the surface, and that all fires could be monitored from infra-red Satelite imagry.

The indication of Thermite/Thermate, is that there were molten pools of steel burried some 3 to 10 feet in the rubble. Satelite photos and infra red photos would only give the surface temperature. The rubble on top of the Molten pools of steel, served as an insulator to keep the 4000 Degree F. Molten pools of steel warm.

Ordinarily, flames burn upward, and would burn firemen in the area. With Thermite/Thermate, no oxygen is needed, and the chemical reaction creates 25,000 degrees Fahrenheit, at the spot of the reaction.

The rubble acted as an insulator, and the 25,000 Degrees Fahrenheit did not reach the surface of most of the rubble. As Rubble was cleared away, some unburned thermite may have been caused to react, and create more heat, creating, or keeping pools, of molten steel at 4000 Degrees F., the temperature of Molten Steel.
.


USGS gives this table as if this pertains to fires that realte to molten metal, which can be produced by Thermite/Thermate.

The approach of the Thermite Deniers has been to discredit the Temperature Facts. There seems to be no other explanation for finding molten steel in the rubble, other than Thermite/Thermate.


Table 1 Thermal Hot Spot Data
Location Temperature Area
Hot Spot N Latitude W Longitude (Kelvin) % FOV sq meter
A 40o 42' 47.18" 74o 00' 41.43" 1000.... 15 0.56
B 40o 42' 47.14" 74o 00' 43.53" 830..... 2 0.08
C 40o 42' 42.89" 74o 00' 48.88" 900..... 20 0.8
D 40o 42' 41.99" 74o 00' 46.94" 790.... 20 0.8
E 40o 42' 40.58" 74o 00' 50.15" 710.... 10 0.4
F 40o 42' 38.74" 74o 00' 46.70" 700.... 10 0.4
G 40o 42' 39.94" 74o 00' 45.37" 1020.... 1 0.04
H 40o 42' 38.60" 74o 00' 43.51" 820..... 2 0.08

[1000 Degrees Kelvin is 1340 Degrees Fahrenheit.]



Positions are in degrees-minutes-decimal seconds, datum WGS84.
Position accuracy is estimated to be approximately +/- 6 meters (18 feet).

USGS Spectroscopy Lab - World Trade Center USGS environmental assessment




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Gladiator

To make things less hateful, perhaps we can classify people into three groups. Thermite Deniers, Thermite Considerers, and Thermite Advocates.

I consider myself a Thermite Considerer.

Do you have a more constructive classification of opinions for this thread? I just used Neocons out of convenience, to mean Thermite Deniers. I don't really understand the details of the conspiracies that were played out. The broad outlines seem pretty clear.




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Gladiator

I do not see any anlysis of evidence of Thermite/Termate. Do you have a section and page number for me? I just see an in depth analysis of the heated, weakened steel, and floor collapse theory. Seems like Thermite Denial to me. Not one word about Thermite/Thermate or shaped charges.

No attempt to explain molten steel found for 3 weeks after 9-11, in the rubble from WTC 1, 2 & 7.



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Ethereal

Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition Myths - Iron Burns!!!

Fiddytree

Why would you use one political ideology to mean those who are "Thermite Deniers"? It becomes even sillier once far more than Neocons don't seem to buy into it?

I am not a man of science, but I do know Neoconservatism, and you are making absolutely no sense.

Gladiator

So you believe that none of the Thermite Deniers have any interest in covering up Thermite at the WTC, which may have been planted by a small conspiracy, to enhance the effects of the airplanes hitting the WTC? Would the presence of Thermite at WTC mean that a small number of those interested in War with Iraq, may have planted the Thermite/Thermate? For those who support the War with Iraq, who understand that Thermite at WTC means that a few zealots, who also desired War with Iraq, probably planted the Thermite, would not intuitively know to cover up the Thermite?

You believe that since you read Neoconsrvative literature and publications, and find no mention of Thermite, that then it is NOT possible that a small group of zealots, supporting War with Iraq, planted Thermite/Thermate at WTC?

Your motives for vigorously denying Thermite was used for WTC 9-11, is not to cover up the possiblity that Thermite was used by zealots attempting to manipulate the US Public/Congress into supporting War with Iraq?

Those who know that the Myth/Logic supporting the War in Iraq, is the idea that WTC was brought down by Airplanes, would not inutitively know to discredit any ideas or facts that might indicate that factors other than Airplanes brought down the WTC towers on 9-11? So even those people who did not support War in Iraq, before 9-11, but who now support the War in Iraq, realize now that Thermite might undermine the myth/logic suporting War in Iraq?

TWA Flight 800 off Long Island in 1996, might have been shot down by a missle. There was mangled steel behind the cockpit, and the cockpit had separated from the plane at the start of the sequence leading to the fire, explosion and crash of TWA flight 800.

The Myth/Logic was that airplanes were safe to fly, and that no one would shoot down an airliner with a missle, and airliners had no reason to zig-zag, or be equipped with Anti Missle Heat arrays.

So the government officials, with the cooperation of the Airlines and the public, sought to discredit any info on Missles, relating to WA Flight 800. The conspiracy of Missle deniers was done intuitively, without publication of reasons to deny the Missle Theory. Top officials denied the missle theory vigorously, and most everyone followed suit.

TWA Flight 800

So I am unconvinced by the absensce of a discussion in Pro Iraq War articles and publications, which accepting your evaluation, that it is a good idea to deny Thermite at WTC on 9-11. Those instructions can effectively be transmitted by a few, or many, leaders giving vigorous denials to the facts supporting the presence of Thermite at WTC on 9-11.

I should probably expect that facts that undermine an important Myth/Logic for the US Congress/Public would not be popular. I just feel foolish myself, for having bought into the heated steel, collapsing floor theory, as I have advocated in earlier posts on this thread, and on other DP threads. So part of my diligence is looking at evidence or facts supporting Thermite, is a rebuttal of my own Naivete.

I should probably appologise for the rage my posts might create, in detracting from an important US Myth/Logic supporting War in Iraq. I am not sure I am the only one who should appologise.


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