roguenuke

Provide unbiased proof that Bush or anyone for that matter covered up anything. And so OBL just happened to have these tapes of last testaments of all these men that we have identified as highjackers and he is continuing to show them and take credit for something that our government did eventhough the truth of a coverup could only help his cause? Maybe OBL is really just conspiring with the Bush Admin.

Second point, steel structures have collapsed due to overloads. The overload does not have to be over the entire roof. Do a little more research and you'll find that you can collapse a steel structure by overloading it this is why there are maximum load per square foot precautions for all buildings. Also, heat can cause a collapse as well, it's just not that common due to fire-proofing and fire safety precautions. Steel weakened by a fire may lose its ability to hold the weight that it was designed to hold. Added together, either or both of these could have lead to the collapse.

It's one thing to say that the possibility of a conspiracy/coverup exists, yet quite another to insist that a conspiracy/coverup is the only possible explaination for unexplained pieces of an event. Especially when you don't know if the information you are receiving about the conspiracy/coverup is even accurate or true at all.

Heracy

But .. the planes were exeeding the speed of light .... therefore, they would hit home like a *******ed rail gun.

see?



it must be true because it was on TV.

6FeetofSole

whoa! fast shuttle is fast

Chanda

I just did that. The immediate and illegal removal of crime scene evidence is a blatant and obvious cover up. Bush et al tried to claim there were no pre-9/11 warnings, but now we know there were numerous warnings. For an entire year Bush stonewalled an investigation of one of the most horrendous crimes in history--why? Why did he refuse to testify under oath for the 9/11 Commission? You demand unbiased proof from me, but how much of your own conclusion was based on unbiased sources?

Those tapes, if real, are not proof of the official conspiracy theory. As I mentioned before, the involvement of AQ isn't proof they were able to cause the complete destruction of 3 skyscrapers, or as amateur pilots, perform incredible maneuvers at the Pentagon.

For a straight-down, near free-all speed collapse, the supports must all fail simultaneously. Ask any control demolition expert.



Falling debris damaged one corner of wtc7, and NIST concluded there was only a “very low probability of occurrence” … that the fires weakened the structure in such a way as to cause a symmetrical collapse.

Wait...isn't that what you are doing?

__________________
"What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne."--Barack Obama, Oct. 2002

Gladiator

Once the wieght of 6 or more floors came to rest on the floor of impact, each floor is designed to hold ony 5 times the normal weight of the floor. Once there were 6 or more floors resting on one floor, the building started coming down, with the successive weight of 9, 10, 11 floors all exceeding the floor strength, as the upper floors bore excessive weight on each successive lower floor.

There was a conspiracy similar to Pearl Harbor, that instructions were given not to pre-emptive counter attack. Rumsfeld had missles to protect the Pentagon, but refused to allow the defensive missles to be fired.

Bush had been antagonizing the Palestinians, encouraging Israel to buldoze palestinian neighboroods houses. Bush was hoping for an attack so he could go to war. Just like Roosevelt was delighted wtih Pear Harbor. Roosevelt delibarately cut off 0il supplies for Japan. Japan had 30 days of oil when Japan attacked Pear Harbor. No Surprise. Pure Set Up.


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Gladiator

Your demolition people do not discuss the fact that steel loses 90% of its strength in rising from 800 Degrees to 1500 Degrees F.

9-11 Research: The Fires' Impact

It is true that Bush and Rumsfeld knew that Bin Laden was going to fly planes into the World Trade Center. Bush had time to plant explosives to bring the buildings down, even if only a feeble hit was made by Bin Laden.

The Oil companies need Bin Laden to continue the wars for Oil.

Table of contents for America's oil wars / Stephen Pelletière.

Bibliographic record and links to related information available from the Library of Congress catalog
Note: Electronic data is machine generated. May be incomplete or contain other coding.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction ix
1 The Origins of Religious Unrest in the Middle East
in the 1990s 1
2 Arms in the Gulf 33
3 The Politicat Effects of the Third Oil Shock 69
4 Techno War in the Gulf 103
5 The Neo-Cons' Silver Bullet Strategy 131
Conclusion 149
Appendix A: Letter to President Clinton on Iraq 153
Appendix B: Members Pohicy Review Board 157




Library of Congress subject headings for this publication: Iraq War, 2003- Causes, Iraq War, 2003- Moral and ethical aspects United States, Petroleum industry and trade Political aspects United States, Petroleum industry and trade Political aspects Iraq


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Chanda

And building 7?

roguenuke

The provided proof was unbiased? Really? You cannot prove that anything was taken from the scene of the towers. Besides, if any of the WTC had been brought down with demolitions, where is the proof, not hear-say? Even some actual witness that testifies that they saw at least one piece of the demolitions that would have been needed to collapse removed from the site. With demolitions, do you think it would even be possible to pick up every piece of the required demolitions, even for a building of 7's size, without someone, let alone lots of people not noticing?

Why wouldn't the tapes be real? And if OBL were to say that his group really didn't do it, that it was a conspiracy by or even with the Bush Admin, he would be able to further his jihad even more and get more recruits and villify the US all in one blow. Because if his terrorist organization didn't do it or were in league with anyone from the US government to do it, then Bush and the US government would look totally horrendous to the world. Bush and/or anyone involved could be not only removed from office, but also face charges.
Even if OBL contended to just not being responsible for the Pentagon, he could still land a huge blow to Bush and America. I just don't see this as likely.

Yet, almost every, if not all, building demolitions that I have seen on TV come down one side at a time. It just seems like a really big stretch, especially when there are demolition experts who say that building 7 could have come down due to the debris and fire. You have your experts, I have mine.

No, I am arguing which is the more logical scenario. I will freely admit that it is possible that there is some huge conspiracy involving people in our government (whether only a few people or a whole lot of people) that made all the events of 9/11 occur. I believe, however, that the more logical possibility is the official commission's report on how things happened and that the entire thing was AQ's fault.

Our government does do bad things, but the timing on this one would just be too good for me to be able to buy a conspiracy theory. Our government just isn't that good at not getting caught, and for this to be conspiracy involving our government, there would be a lot of convincing evidence for people to find, not just experts whose opinions are not matching other experts, hearsay, and theories that don't even match each other half the time. You might get me to believe you if you could show me proof that isn't vague at best with disputed experts.

Chanda

Sure, they do (Read your own link):

9-11 Research: The Fires' Impact

After all, these "demolition people" are physicists, engineers, architects:

AE911Truth

and controlled demolition experts:




Doesn't it seem logical to you that weakened steel would gradually begin to bend and fall haphazardly, rather than plunge straight down? Why did it happen three times on 9/11, but never before in the history of steel structured skyscrapers

Gladiator

The Titanic sank due to cheap rivits.

I have not studied the fires in Building 7. The Elevator shafts may have been designed to be part of the structural stength of the buildings, and the fires may have gotten into the elevator shafts, and unprotected steel beams.

Steel beams are covered with sprayed-on fibre insulation material that is designed to hold off the heat of a fire for 2 hours. Building 7 burned longer than 2 hours, and the sprinkler systems failed, which would have provided cooling.

The collapse of Towers 1 and 2 must have had some effect on the underpinning foundations of Building 7. The vibration of the collapse of the Towers may have had an effect of creating fissures and falling off of the fibrous insulation for the steel beams.

One change I have seen in buildings today, is that the stairwells are starting to be pressureized with fresh air, so that smoke filled stairwells will be less likely in fires, blocking people from exiting the building.

Is there a good description of the fires in Building 7 on one of your resources?

Flames are 2000 to 3000 degrees. Fires in houses are fought by chopping a hole in the roof, so the heat can escape, and water can be poured in the top. There was not much cooling for Building 7, and the heat may have just kept building up inside. I have not heard a good analysis of the sprinklers in Building 7. The pipes for water may have been broken by the damage by the Towers falling. Were there broken natural gas lines? What other flamable material was in Building 7? Even Fire retardent material at 1000 or 1500 degrees is going to oxidize, burn and give off more heat.

I am not saying the Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are above setting explosive charges. Foreign country military service explosive experts could have been used, so Congressional Inquiries are worthless.

If explosives were used, those who would know about it would keep their mouths shut. Even those who saw evidence of explosives in the rubble, would also keep quiet. It is too embarrassing. Bush is an embarrassment, as I remember someone pointed out to me before he was even elected,

What are the estimated temperatures inside Building 7, over time?

I believe I already watched your video subtitles in an earlier post. The video in the last post did not work for me.

Bending is a property of cold steel. Hot steel is more like soup. I took a metallurgy class in college, and hammer-forged some hot steel. Red hot steel is about 1000 to 1500 degrees, Whte hot is 1600 Degrees F. Hammer some hot steel and tell me what you think of its bending properties.


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