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Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire[W:226]

Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

...the girder expands to the inside of the C79 west side plate 1.8" overlap at an early stage of the heating phase, as per the latest analysis of the structure. It can only fail in the cooling phase by contraction of the beams, once it has contracted enough itself to clear the C79 east side plate 1.8" extension.
ETA
"Phil Barry, Founder of Britain's CWB Fire Safety Consultants Ltd.

Barry told Reuters that, working as a consultant in the Gulf in 2012, he had identified "a general trend of fires in high-rises," which in some places indicated a need for stronger regulation and tougher building codes." emphasis added

Where is this leading to? Interesting as it is it has no bearing on the collapse of the Twin Towers. I seem to remember that large planes were involved in those cases.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Where is this leading to? Interesting as it is it has no bearing on the collapse of the Twin Towers. I seem to remember that large planes were involved in those cases.

It's not leading anywhere. That's it. NISTs stated hypothesis for the initiating event that they say led to the global progressive collapse of WTC7 has been invalidated.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

It was on the outside of the building. It spread because of the aluminium sandwiched plastic cored type cladding that is common in Dubai. Such cladding would not have complied with code as per WTC7 and experts are blaming lax building code in Dubai for allowing this material to be used in cladding of high rises.

And the interior construction, fire resistance, fire suppression?
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

It's not leading anywhere. That's it. NISTs stated the stop wasting tiome and just say so. This is the conspiracy forum and we amm know what the sub text is in th OP.hypothesis for the initiating event that they say led to the global progressive collapse of WTC7 has been invalidated.

That is a leading statement if I ever heard one. Invalidated? How? Because the building in Dubia did not collapse? If you believe in controlled demolitions on 911 then just say so. This is the conspiracy forum and we all know what the sub text is in the OP.
 
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Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Considering the recent fire at the Dubai tower, is it possible to infer that the theory and explanation advanced by NIST is invalid or inaccurate?

If it is true that office fires can weaken steel in 1 hour or 2, leading to collapse, why was that not demonstrated in the Dubai event which burned for a day or more?

I assume that any interested posters will already be aware of the Dubai fire and also the gist of the NIST report.

Thoughts?

Well, the Dubai Address has a reinforced concrete structure for one.

And the fire at Dubai Address was confined to the buildings exterior for another.

And a lot of other things you would already know if you had bothered to do the slightest amount of due-dilligence - or at least read my post from two-days ago attempting (and failing) to-preempt a thread just like this:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-center-w-424-1132-a-127.html#post1065416078
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Here is the answer to HD's OP, re-posted from the thread referenced above:

Whenever there is any sort of fire in any sort of high-rise building CT's get their undies in a bunch about why the building didn't collapse like on 9/11, usually phrased in vague inference & innuendo rather than direct to-the-point claims about how this is somehow proof that 7 World Trade Center must have been a controlled demolition. On New Years eve in Dubai there was a spectacular high-rise fire at the Address Hotel (the 5th high-rise fire in Dubai in the last 18 months IIRC) and of course the Facebook CT pages and other sites didn't even wait for the flames to die out before making their comparisons to 9/11 and questions as to why it didn't collapse like on 9/11.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2863...3699423650250/

The answer to why buildings don't just fall down at the first whiff of smoke is of course simple and obvious (so long as you are not a conspiracy theorist) - the two situations were dramatically different. Not all buildings are the same and not all fires are the same, so to expect the same results from totally different scenario's is,... a bit daft.

It looks pretty spectacular in large part because the fire occurred at night when fire is much more visible than during the day (a fact inexplicably lost on most CT's) AND because the fire was confined almost entirely to the exterior of the building.

So why didn't the Address collapse like the buildings on 9/11? It was tall and it was on fire right? Because 9/11 happened that must mean that any tall building that catches fire has to collapse, right?

1. The design and construction of the buildings which collapsed from impact and internal fire on 9/11/2001 was fundamentally different. Dubai Address - like most tall buildings in Dubai - is of reinforced concrete construction which is dramatically more fire resistant than steel framing.

2. The nature of the fires was completely different. The buildings which collapsed on 9/11 all suffered un-fought internal fires. The fire at Dubai Address was confined almost entirely to the buildings exterior.

The Dubai Address' exterior cladding caught fire. In the few places where this exterior fire did break through to the buildings interior the existing and intact fire protection systems combined with active fire fighting efforts prevented it spreading inside. Because it was an exterior fire, firefighters were able to easily reach the points where it broke through inside and almost certainly could even preposition in anticipation of fire breaking in.

Unlike the interior fires on 9/11, most of the heat output from the Dubai Address fire is being taken away from the structure by convection and radiation. In addition, no equivalent to hot smoke and gas flashover is even possible, which eliminates the highest temperature combustion which plagues an interior fire. Fire on the outside looks spectacular, but allows the structure to freely radiate off heat and the primary structure therefore doesn't dangerously heat up.

3. Active firefighting and fire suppression was not impaired at Dubai Address.

Unlike 9/11 the active and passive fire suppression at Dubai Address was not compromised in any way. They had full water pressure for sprinklers and hoses, all fireproofing was in place and fire stops were unbroken. This was not the case on 9/11 where 2 buildings suffered through-and-through's from massive high-speed airliners and the third had its side ripped out by a collapsing tower which also cut off the water supply. Sprinklers help cool the air in addition to putting out the fires so even if they can't put out the fire they can still dramatically reduce the gas temperature inside the building. The 9/11 buildings didn't have that.

In Dubai sprinklers worked and the fire department could send fully manned and equipped fire battalions with full access to the building to fight the fire effectively and as a result, the fire never spread to the building interior and there was no build-up of dangerous gas temperatures under the ceilings. On 9/11 because 300+ firefighters had just been killed, much of their equipment destroyed and the water supply cut off, 7 WTC was left to burn with fires unfought.

Lets put an end to the cycle. The fact that a dozen or a hundred other tall buildings did not collapse from fire does not mean no building can collapse if subjected to the right combination of events. There are no direct analogues for what happened on 9/11, and any indirect ones that do exist are very limited in how they can be applied.

BTW -

Witnesses reported hearing explosions during the Dubai Address fire and yet somehow the building didn't collapse. Odd.

[/thread]
 
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Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Here is the answer to HD's OP, re-posted from the thread referenced above:

Whenever there is any sort of fire in any sort of high-rise building CT's get their undies in a bunch about why the building didn't collapse like on 9/11, usually phrased in vague inference & innuendo rather than direct to-the-point claims about how this is somehow proof that 7 World Trade Center must have been a controlled demolition. On New Years eve in Dubai there was a spectacular high-rise fire at the Address Hotel (the 5th high-rise fire in Dubai in the last 18 months IIRC) and of course the Facebook CT pages and other sites didn't even wait for the flames to die out before making their comparisons to 9/11 and questions as to why it didn't collapse like on 9/11.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2863...3699423650250/

The answer to why buildings don't just fall down at the first whiff of smoke is of course simple and obvious (so long as you are not a conspiracy theorist) - the two situations were dramatically different. Not all buildings are the same and not all fires are the same, so to expect the same results from totally different scenario's is,... a bit daft.

It looks pretty spectacular in large part because the fire occurred at night when fire is much more visible than during the day (a fact inexplicably lost on most CT's) AND because the fire was confined almost entirely to the exterior of the building.

So why didn't the Address collapse like the buildings on 9/11? It was tall and it was on fire right? Because 9/11 happened that must mean that any tall building that catches fire has to collapse, right?

1. The design and construction of the buildings which collapsed from impact and internal fire on 9/11/2001 was fundamentally different. Dubai Address - like most tall buildings in Dubai - is of reinforced concrete construction which is dramatically more fire resistant than steel framing.

2. The nature of the fires was completely different. The buildings which collapsed on 9/11 all suffered un-fought internal fires. The fire at Dubai Address was confined almost entirely to the buildings exterior.

The Dubai Address' exterior cladding caught fire. In the few places where this exterior fire did break through to the buildings interior the existing and intact fire protection systems combined with active fire fighting efforts prevented it spreading inside. Because it was an exterior fire, firefighters were able to easily reach the points where it broke through inside and almost certainly could even preposition in anticipation of fire breaking in.

Unlike the interior fires on 9/11, most of the heat output from the Dubai Address fire is being taken away from the structure by convection and radiation. In addition, no equivalent to hot smoke and gas flashover is even possible, which eliminates the highest temperature combustion which plagues an interior fire. Fire on the outside looks spectacular, but allows the structure to freely radiate off heat and the primary structure therefore doesn't dangerously heat up.

3. Active firefighting and fire suppression was not impaired at Dubai Address.

Unlike 9/11 the active and passive fire suppression at Dubai Address was not compromised in any way. They had full water pressure for sprinklers and hoses, all fireproofing was in place and fire stops were unbroken. This was not the case on 9/11 where 2 buildings suffered through-and-through's from massive high-speed airliners and the third had its side ripped out by a collapsing tower which also cut off the water supply. Sprinklers help cool the air in addition to putting out the fires so even if they can't put out the fire they can still dramatically reduce the gas temperature inside the building. The 9/11 buildings didn't have that.

In Dubai sprinklers worked and the fire department could send fully manned and equipped fire battalions with full access to the building to fight the fire effectively and as a result, the fire never spread to the building interior and there was no build-up of dangerous gas temperatures under the ceilings. On 9/11 because 300+ firefighters had just been killed, much of their equipment destroyed and the water supply cut off, 7 WTC was left to burn with fires unfought.

Lets put an end to the cycle. The fact that a dozen or a hundred other tall buildings did not collapse from fire does not mean no building can collapse if subjected to the right combination of events. There are no direct analogues for what happened on 9/11, and any indirect ones that do exist are very limited in how they can be applied.

BTW -

Witnesses reported hearing explosions during the Dubai Address fire and yet somehow the building didn't collapse. Odd.

{/thread}

That is the explanation. Thank you. Next case please.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Explain please.

The analysis shows that the girder between C79 and 44 would itself expand toward the north face of column 79 early in the heating phase of the analysis. There are 2 plates on the east and west faces of column 79, they extend the north flange of the column by 1.8". The girder, being trapped inside this 1.8" extension cannot fail to the west as NIST stated. It can only possibly fail to the east in the cooling phase by contraction of beams to the NE of it.
Here's a plan view of the girder connection at column 79, showing the west and east sideplates at the top and bottom as per this view. https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/i100.photobucket.com_albums_m18_JazzRoc_C79.jpg
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

The analysis shows that the girder between C79 and 44 would itself expand toward the north face of column 79 early in the heating phase of the analysis. There are 2 plates on the east and west faces of column 79, they extend the north flange of the column by 1.8". The girder, being trapped inside this 1.8" extension cannot fail to the west as NIST stated. It can only possibly fail to the east in the cooling phase by contraction of beams to the NE of it.
Here's a plan view of the girder connection at column 79, showing the west and east sideplates at the top and bottom as per this view. https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/i100.photobucket.com_albums_m18_JazzRoc_C79.jpg
So what? The planes and the fires were not enough to bring down the Twin Towers? Are you suggesting controlled demolitions? No need to be so coy.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

So what? The planes and the fires were not enough to bring down the Twin Towers? Are you suggesting controlled demolitions? No need to be so coy.

No. I am stating where NISTs WTC7 analysis is flawed, making their stated hypothesis for the collapse impossible.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Considering the recent fire at the Dubai tower, is it possible to infer that the theory and explanation advanced by NIST is invalid or inaccurate?

If it is true that office fires can weaken steel in 1 hour or 2, leading to collapse, why was that not demonstrated in the Dubai event which burned for a day or more?

because a plane didn't hit it and basically ruin its structural integrity. from what i've read, the exoskeleton of each of the WTC towers was a significant part of the support, and the planes ****ed up both that and the middle of the building.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

So what? The planes and the fires were not enough to bring down the Twin Towers? Are you suggesting controlled demolitions? No need to be so coy.

So what it has nothing to do with the OP, which concerns principally the Dubai Address Hotel. If Gerrycan would like to pander these 7 WTC specific claims - which he and I both know have already been addressed elsewhere - then he should do so in the appropriate thread.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

No. I am stating where NISTs WTC7 analysis is flawed, making their stated hypothesis for the collapse impossible.

We've been through this before in other threads. Done and dusted. If you have no alternative explanation for the collapses then I see no reason to carry on here.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

So what it has nothing to do with the OP, which concerns principally the Dubai Address Hotel. If Gerrycan would like to pander these 7 WTC specific claims - which he and I both know have already been addressed elsewhere - then he should do so in the appropriate thread.

I agree.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

But the principles are the same Mike--fires weakening steel, and an hour later, maybe 2, the building collapses at virtual free fall speeds.

Yes, the Dubai event had no airplane strike and no jetfuel, but unlike WTC towers, virtually the entire building was involved, top to bottom. WTC had only about 10 floors involved. The rest of the building was not involved, and that's how and why so many from NYFD made it as high in the building as they did.

So if the NIST explanation were valid--heated steel becoming weak and then failing, why did that not happen at Dubai? The fires were larger, covered more area, appeared to be more intense, burned 10 or 20 times longer in duration, yet the building remained standing.

Kevin Ryan pointed out that steel is a poor conductor of heat, and that the steel at WTC met all UL and Fire Code specifications. Does Dubai perhaps use better steel then than they do in NYC?

Could it be that the NIST explanation is not valid? Did political nepotism trump the scientific method at NIST? It appears so.

Is this one of those "reality bites" moments for those embracing the NIST explanation?

Could it be the mini neutron bomb explanation is not valid?

Your entertaining in your posts. Your own post shows its an apples to orange comparison. As stated many time in various threads one can accept a fire induced collapse without agreeing 100% with the official reports like NIST.

If you believe the two are comparable, you truly do not understand fire behavior. You might as well ask why one building collapses during an earthquake when some do not.
 
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Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

No. I am stating where NISTs WTC7 analysis is flawed, making their stated hypothesis for the collapse impossible.

Even if NIST is not 100% correct, that does not rule out that it still could have been the result of a fire induced collapse.

Any explanation should stand on its own merits. If you accept an alternative explanation for the collapse of WTC7, please outline what it is and provide links to your source of information.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

I did know that, which is why I wouldn't try to draw any comparisons between the two. Different circumstances, so different results.

Thanks for the candor.

I also assume that you are aware that the engineers who built the towers were quickly on the record stating that the towers had been designed and built to withstand the strike of an airliner, which the buildings did.

And that the reason offered by NIST for the collapse was fires that weakened the steel, causing a collapse at near free fall rates.

And that the only cases on record of a modern steel high rise building collapsing like that due to fire were all in the same city block on the same day?

Thus WTC is a major statistical anomaly, and that the NIST effectively put forth a conclusion first, and then tried to adjust "facts" to reach that conclusion.

The Dubai event clearly demonstrates that the NIST hypothetical is invalid. It being invalid was determined long before the
Dubai event, but that event simply proved its invalidity. The NIST machinations were an insult to the scientific method.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

because a plane didn't hit it and basically ruin its structural integrity. from what i've read, the exoskeleton of each of the WTC towers was a significant part of the support, and the planes ****ed up both that and the middle of the building.

Not to be redundant, but the towers were designed and built to withstand such a strike. They did withstand such a strike.

Because the collapse happened at very close to free fall speeds, that means the lower two-thirds of the structure, below the point of impact and fires, also failed almost instantly. How can that be? Iron is a very poor conductor of heat, but we are told that fires on 10 floors mysteriously weakened the entire structure. It does not make sense.
 
Re: Weakened steel, NIST report, and Dubai tower fire

Could it be the mini neutron bomb explanation is not valid?

Your entertaining in your posts. Your own post shows its an apples to orange comparison. As stated many time in various threads one can accept a fire induced collapse without agreeing 100% with the official reports like NIST.

If you believe the two are comparable, you truly do not understand fire behavior. You might as well ask why one building collapses during an earthquake when some do not.

You and others do bring up a good point Mike, about the subtle differences in design between the buildings we discuss. However, the differences are not really apples and oranges. It's more like Granny Smith apples compared to some other variety of apple. They are both apples, but there are small differences.

Both these incidents involved tall, modern, steel and concrete buildings. One employed the exoskeleton, the other did not. One was 30+ years old, the other almost brand new. One was struck by an airplane, one was not. One was nearly completely engulfed in flames for 24 hours or more, the other had small fires on about 10% of the vertical structure for 2 hours max. One had reports of explosion in the basement prior to the airplane strike, and the other we're not sure if it even had basements.

So if fire weakens steel to the point of failure as NIST claims, WTF happened in Dubai? The NIST hypothesis was proved wrong again, that's what happened.
 
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