Pull My Finger

AGAIN if you watch the video, that first guy asking the question – and his wording - is ****ing insignificant. I don’t need NASA surface temp images because the molten steel underneath tells me temps were hot enough to melt steel… Get a clue, dude…

"Yes, hot spots of molten steel in the basements."
Mark Loizeaux President of CDI who cleared the WTC rubble

Piece

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dixon76710

but lets just go with this as true

whats your point? Melted anything after three weeks of fire is evidence of the conditions after three weeks of fire, not the conditions that lead to the collapse. The NIST investigated the conditions that lead to the collapse, not the conditions generated by three weeks of fire at the bottom of a massive rubble pile.

Pull My Finger

I thought you might use that email from after the fact… The reason I still chose to use that quote is Loizeaux trusted his contractors enough to go public with it… Those contractors can be added to the other multiple eye witnesses who saw molten steel
“steel melts at around 2,600 degrees Fahrenheit… I think it’s pretty difficult to get those kind of temperatures from fire”
John Gross, lead engineer of NIST report on molten steel in rubble.

Peace

dixon76710

Soooo your best evidence of "huge pools of molten steel" is fireman who saw molten steel running down a beam, your next best evidence was a guy off camera saying the NASA images show these temperatures, when in fact the NASA images show no such thing, and next in line is what you know to be second hand information from someone who witnessed no such thing. Dude, you believe because you soooo desparately want to believe.

rhinefire

I will believe in people fron other worlds when I see one.

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End global whining

kathaksung

WTC-7 mystery will soon be solved. Nearly 7 years later.

Dissenter spoke out.

But he was fired ten days later. Very efficient compare for that later conclusion.

Gladiator

""UL does not certify structural steel, such as the beams, columns and trusses used in World Trade Center," said Paul M. Baker, the company's spokesman.

Ryan was fired, Baker said, because he "expressed his own opinions as though they were institutional opinions and beliefs of UL."

"The contents of the argument itself are spurious at best, and frankly, they're just wrong," Baker said.

Seeking to head off controversy just months before its report is released, the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued its own statement Thursday.

Some steel recovered from the WTC was exposed to fires of only 400 to 600 degrees, the institute said, but computer modeling has shown higher temperatures of 1,100 to 1,300 degrees or greater were "likely" experienced by steel in regions directly affected by the fires.

The institute believes impact from the jets dislodged fireproofing surrounding some of the steel, and the higher temperatures led to the buckling of the towers' core columns."

Kevin R. Ryan Terminated at Underwriters Laboratories: Area Man Stirs Debate on WTC Collapse: South Bend firm's lab director fired after questioning federal probe JOHN DOBBERSTEIN / South Bend Tribune 22nov04






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Gladiator

"But now nearly seven years after 9/11 the definitive official explanation of what happened to Tower Seven is finally about to be published in America.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology has spent more than two years investigating Tower Seven but lead investigator Dr Shyam Sunder rejects criticism that it has been slow.......

"With no steel from Tower 7 to study, investigators have instead made four extremely complex computer models worked out to the finest detail. They're confident their approach can now provide the answers. Dr Sunder says the investigation is moving as fast as possible. .....


"Steel structure weakened

It says Tower Seven had an unusual design, built over an electricity substation and a subway; there were many fires that burnt for hours; and crucially, fire fighters could not fight the fires in Tower 7, because they didn't have enough water and focused on saving lives.

Investigators have focused on the east side where the long floor spans were under most stress.

They think fires burnt long enough to weaken and break many of the connections that held the steel structure together.

Most susceptible were the thinner floor beams which required less fireproofing, and the connections between the beams and the columns. As they heated up the connections failed and the beams sagged and failed, investigators say.

The collapse of the first of the Twin Towers does not seem to have caused any serious damage to Tower Seven, but the second collapse of the 1,368ft (417m) North Tower threw debris at Tower Seven, just 350ft (106m) away.

Tower Seven came down at 5.21pm. Until now most of the photographs have been of the three sides of the building that did not show much obvious physical damage. Now new photos of the south side of the building, which crucially faced the North Tower, show that whole side damaged and engulfed in smoke. "

BBC NEWS | Americas | 9/11 third tower mystery 'solved'


Fires in WT& burned long enough and hot enough to weaken the steel supporting the building.

Those who have been quoted as suggesting explosive charges brought down WTC7 have not shown, that I have seen a detailed understanding and analysis of the heat over time inside the building, on various floors.








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Chanda

What about the fact that fires have never before caused the collapse of steel-framed skyscrapers, even in buildings that burned hours longer, such as the Caracas skyscraper fire that burned for 17 hours?

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Gladiator

No fire fighting team lost as many firefighters as NYFD on 9-11-01. NYFD did not fight the WT7 fire, from noon till it fell.

"...Briceno said he couldn't rule out that the building might collapse because of the heavy structural damage. `The sprinkler system didn't work. There's no water pressure up there. Military helicopters were ferrying in water to dump on the blaze...."

Caracas Skyscraper Fire, Oct 17 2004

No water was dumped by any airplane or helicopter on WT7. All planes and helicopters were grounded on 9-11-01.


If WT7 had cought fire, by itself, considerable more efforrt would have been made by NYFD to cool down the WT7.

Maybe no building has gotten as hot as WT7.

There is often substnatial stratification of tmperaures on a floor, in a fire. That is why people are sometimes taught to crawl out of a fire. Toxic gasses collect at the bottom of the room or hall. Higher temperatures and smoke are closer to 6 feet, where you would breathe, if you were standing.

Maybe no other building has burned as hot as WT7. The heat, reaching 1300 degrees at the ceiling of a few floors, would be heating hte beams supporting the next floor up, and the connection of that flor to the support columns.


"During the early morning hours, explosions could be heard as flammable material ignited as well as the explosion of windows that were reached by the fire. The fire roared out of control for 17 hours, by which time all floors from the 34th to the top had been burned."

"Firefighters had to use hoses with a reach of 40 stories to put out the fire due to the lack of a functioning sprinkler system in the building. Also crucial in putting out the fire were army helicopters, which unloaded water onto the side of the building, in order to cool it off and thereby prevent structural damage to it."

Fire Practically Destroys Venezuela's Tallest Building

The Venezuelan Army had the experience of WT 1,2, & 7, and took action where the US Army was not called in, for 9-11-01.

The fire looks worse in Caracas, because the windows were blown out and flames can be seen coming out from the sides of hte building. But the blown out windows probalby helped keep the ceilings less than 1300 Degrees, even though the air fed the flames.

NYFD did not use hoses on the sides of WT7, after noon. Caracas Fire fighters had hoses, with enough water, to reach forty stories, with most of the fire on th 34th floor.



"- Tallest building in Caracas and Venezuela, along with its twin tower.
- On October 17, 2004, at least ten floors of the building caught fire. The main focus of the fire was in the 34th floor and flames reached the 44th floor of the building.
- From 2005-2006, the tower was renovated, the structure was reinforced, and new security systems were installed."

Parque Central Torre Este, Caracas / Emporis.com


I searched: Caracas Skyscraper Fire


Repairs ongoing as of Jan 2008.

Parque Central Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Putting water on the Parque Central building may have caused the fire to burn longer, but cooler. It is not the length of time the fire burns, 5 hours, 7 hours or 17 hours; the question is what is the temperature at the celing, where the steel beams join the steel columns. And how many floors have ceilings above 1200 Degrees F?

Fire Protection Engineering Archives - Use of FDS to Assess the Effectiveness of an Air Sampling-Type Detector for Large Open Space Protection

1993 Fire Publications - Generation of Stable Thermal Stratification by Turbulent Flows in a Partially Open Enclosure.


1999 Fire Publications - Zone Fire Model JET: A Model for the Prediction of Detector Activation and Gas Temperature in the Presence of a Smoke Layer.


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