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ASCE Journals Dishonest & Misleading Concerning the Destruction of WTC Towers

only need the top 2 sections to prevent these characters from continuing with the one column **** models they have been pushing that does not properly take into account the 'tube in tube' plus lattice nature of the design.

I am having difficulty locating the materials and connections BOM's. I expect despite the size variations the connections are roughly the same, get one floor done you pretty much have it for the rest with little extra effort.

NIST already failed with 7 no need to go there, my fav is 2




which DID see a jolt btw

started rotating somewhere around 1degree per foot then majically (in so far as debunkers are concerned) stopped, and despite (presumed) core resistance fell straight down holding approx 25degrees all the way to the ground.
It doesn't sound like you understand scaling and its effects on material properties, loads, deformations, and stresses. You also don't need a model to do an analysis.
 
I'd like to expand on the above if I may. Because it seems you strongly believe in the fire induced theory for the 3 towers, I'll accept that it is only theoretical in your mind. What would you characterize as "artificial assistance"?

Something like this.
 
It doesn't sound like you understand scaling and its effects on material properties, loads, deformations, and stresses. You also don't need a model to do an analysis.

Well your first impression was that I didnt understand the purposes of fea, now this, so why not elaborate on what you think I do not understand so I can see where you are coming from.
 
Well your first impression was that I didnt understand the purposes of fea, now this, so why not elaborate on what you think I do not understand so I can see where you are coming from.

:popcorn:
 
Something like this.

You realize of course that any "artificial assistance" (including the one in the article you provided the link to) means foreknowledge and assistance by elements within the US government, right? So unlike others, you don't dismiss and ridicule that possibility. Am I correct or am I stretching your world view? If I am, please correct me.
 
You realize of course that any "artificial assistance" (including the one in the article you provided the link to) means foreknowledge and assistance by elements within the US government, right? So unlike others, you don't dismiss and ridicule that possibility. Am I correct or am I stretching your world view? If I am, please correct me.
Yes, I realize and yes, you're correct.
 
so as a side note why hasnt ae911 truth produced a model yet?

Koko, what are you looking for in a model? Isn't the evidence, science and logic overwhelming that these were not natural collapses due to fire, planes or both?
 
Well your first impression was that I didnt understand the purposes of fea, now this, so why not elaborate on what you think I do not understand so I can see where you are coming from.

Okay, let's start over.

Is the model you would like to see an fea computer model or a physical model?

Would you want all three high-rise buildings modeled?
 
Yes, I realize and yes, you're correct.

Ok so methodology aside, you leave open the (slim?) possibility (in your mind) that elements within the US government were deeply complicit in the 9/11 terror attacks. This goes even beyond Jango's point of view. If I understand his position, he believes the official narrative more or less, yet also believes there was a deliberate cover-up and as a result, far too many open questions.

In both cases, it implies that neither of you are confident that the 9/11 "investigations" produced satisfactory conclusions. In your case though, are you open to a "new", independent forensic criminal investigation into 9/11? If not, why not?
 
Okay, let's start over.

Is the model you would like to see an fea computer model or a physical model?

Would you want all three high-rise buildings modeled?


wtc 2, top 2/3s for my purposes, 7 is a no brainer.

fea, that accounts for what these guys are handwaving away, cant afford to rebuild the wtc
 
Ok so methodology aside, you leave open the (slim?) possibility (in your mind) that elements within the US government were deeply complicit in the 9/11 terror attacks.
The question, as phrased, is difficult to answer. There's a huge difference between CD/not CD. There's still a huge difference between plane/fire taking out the twin towers and seat of the pants CD of WTC7 for logistical reasons versus CD of WTC7 for nefarious reasons (yes, even with covering it up). And CD being false doesn't eliminate the notion of some level of foreknowledge or complicity. Ignorance and stupidity can rise to the level of criminal.

To take your question as-is, yes, I leave open the slim possibility of deep complicity. The deeper it is, the slimmer it is.

But that has to be judged against the context of my admittedly peculiar approach to matters like this, which might be described as pseudo-quasi-Bayesian. To a true Bayesian, absence of evidence might be considered evidence of absence. I try to believe two pi impossible things before breakfast and, most times, I've come full circle by the time breakfast is served. That is to say, I'm not afraid to challenge conventional wisdom but most times conventional wisdom wins. I rely heavily on abductive reasoning which has served me well but carries with it a burden of investigation and analysis in order to arrive at significant confidence. That's not always practical or even possible, therefore most things I hold true are beliefs based on a measure of faith. That doesn't mean blind faith, but if I'm waiting for certainty to make a decision, I'll never get out of bed.

I believe it's exactly the same way for everyone else, but few are cognizant of that fact.

It does mean I don't tend to argue my beliefs in forum discussions. Virtually everything in the socio-political realm comes under that heading. In these matters, I have to take other people's word for things to begin with, choose my sources carefully and evaluate what I can. Fortunately, a lot of physics and engineering mechanics is accessible to me and so I can operate from first principles objectively. Therefore I DO discuss these things here.

In both cases, it implies that neither of you are confident that the 9/11 "investigations" produced satisfactory conclusions. In your case though, are you open to a "new", independent forensic criminal investigation into 9/11? If not, why not?
I'm not entirely satisfied with the investigation and would not object to additional investigation at considerable expense. However, I'm not calling for it, either. While I would not object to additional engineering investigation I have near zero expectation of any of that producing a "smoking gun" in this regard. It might advance engineering knowledge by some degree. Politically, I do feel the 9/11 Commission Report read like a bad TV treatment; I expect as much in these circumstances and would expect only more of the same if that were to be revisited.

I have very little in common with the concerns I see expressed en masse by the CT community. My dissatisfaction is more an operations concern. I hold my own work to high standard and public service seems by and large not inclined towards the same, sorry to say. I don't expect a different result in another investigation nor any significant subsequent improvement. So I don't much care whether there is or isn't. I am satisfied with the lion's share of the story if only because the bulk of the complaints have been addressed to my satisfaction. A surprising number seem to be entirely groundless and some border on insane.
 
What do I mean, "border on"??? Some ARE insane.
 
wtc 2, top 2/3s for my purposes, 7 is a no brainer.

fea, that accounts for what these guys are handwaving away, cant afford to rebuild the wtc

Okay, so you want fea models of the top 2/3rds of WTC 1 and 2 created and then analyzed.

Do you have any feel for how many man hours would be needed to create the 70 story models?

Do you have a feel for how much computing time and power would be necessary to run the analyses you have in mind?
 
The question, as phrased, is difficult to answer. There's a huge difference between CD/not CD. There's still a huge difference between plane/fire taking out the twin towers and seat of the pants CD of WTC7 for logistical reasons versus CD of WTC7 for nefarious reasons (yes, even with covering it up). And CD being false doesn't eliminate the notion of some level of foreknowledge or complicity. Ignorance and stupidity can rise to the level of criminal.

To take your question as-is, yes, I leave open the slim possibility of deep complicity. The deeper it is, the slimmer it is.

But that has to be judged against the context of my admittedly peculiar approach to matters like this, which might be described as pseudo-quasi-Bayesian. To a true Bayesian, absence of evidence might be considered evidence of absence. I try to believe two pi impossible things before breakfast and, most times, I've come full circle by the time breakfast is served. That is to say, I'm not afraid to challenge conventional wisdom but most times conventional wisdom wins. I rely heavily on abductive reasoning which has served me well but carries with it a burden of investigation and analysis in order to arrive at significant confidence. That's not always practical or even possible, therefore most things I hold true are beliefs based on a measure of faith. That doesn't mean blind faith, but if I'm waiting for certainty to make a decision, I'll never get out of bed.

I believe it's exactly the same way for everyone else, but few are cognizant of that fact.

It does mean I don't tend to argue my beliefs in forum discussions. Virtually everything in the socio-political realm comes under that heading. In these matters, I have to take other people's word for things to begin with, choose my sources carefully and evaluate what I can. Fortunately, a lot of physics and engineering mechanics is accessible to me and so I can operate from first principles objectively. Therefore I DO discuss these things here.


I'm not entirely satisfied with the investigation and would not object to additional investigation at considerable expense. However, I'm not calling for it, either. While I would not object to additional engineering investigation I have near zero expectation of any of that producing a "smoking gun" in this regard. It might advance engineering knowledge by some degree. Politically, I do feel the 9/11 Commission Report read like a bad TV treatment; I expect as much in these circumstances and would expect only more of the same if that were to be revisited.

I have very little in common with the concerns I see expressed en masse by the CT community. My dissatisfaction is more an operations concern. I hold my own work to high standard and public service seems by and large not inclined towards the same, sorry to say. I don't expect a different result in another investigation nor any significant subsequent improvement. So I don't much care whether there is or isn't. I am satisfied with the lion's share of the story if only because the bulk of the complaints have been addressed to my satisfaction. A surprising number seem to be entirely groundless and some border on insane.

We do know the Bush/Cheney administration knowingly mislead the public to get support for their war of choice in Iraq. A number of people, including the famed prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, proved it.

Now it was that same administration that was in power when the buildings came down, which allowed them to attack places many of their backers (oil barons) had an interest in as shown in the Cheney Energy task force releases. These same people were the ones responsible for the investigations into how the buildings came down.

Of course, this only shows propensity to lie and means, motive, and opportunity, to do it and cover it up, and is not definitive proof of involvement. However, if you are more likely than not to think Marvin Bush's involvement in Securacom was just a coincidence then you might be dismissing things too easily.
 
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We do know the Bush/Cheney administration knowingly mislead the public to get support for their war of choice in Iraq. A number of people, including the famed prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, proved it.

Now it was that same administration that was in power when the buildings came down, which allowed them to attack places many of their backers (oil barons) had an interest in as shown in the Cheney Energy task force releases. These same people were the ones responsible for the investigations into how the buildings came down.

Of course, this only shows propensity to lie and motive to do it and cover it up and is not definitive proof of involvement. However, if you are more likely than not to think Marvin Bush's involvement in Securacom was just a coincidence then you might be dismissing things too easily.

Unbelievable.
 
We do know the Bush/Cheney administration knowingly mislead the public to get support for their war of choice in Iraq. A number of people, including the famed prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, proved it.

Now it was that same administration that was in power when the buildings came down, which allowed them to attack places many of their backers (oil barons) had an interest in as shown in the Cheney Energy task force releases. These same people were the ones responsible for the investigations into how the buildings came down.

Of course, this only shows propensity to lie and means, motive, and opportunity, to do it and cover it up, and is not definitive proof of involvement. However, if you are more likely than not to think Marvin Bush's involvement in Securacom was just a coincidence then you might be dismissing things too easily.

All of what you think was a motive to do 911 is also explained by these same people taken advantage of and manipulating things *a bit* with the intent to cash out... sort of making lemonade from lemons. NB these types make out no matter what happens and so it's a stretch to think they would engineer such an elaborate conspiracy when much simpler BS can be used to achieve their political and economic goals.

Really this crew is too stupid to plan what the CT believe they did. And they haven't won a war in since WWII despite overwhelming advantage.

Can you imagine planning the inside job? It boggles the mind.
 
The issue I have with the Bush and Co. did 9/11 so the US could/would go to war.

Has not past Presidents committed US troops to war on a lot less than the actions of 9/11?

imo, it was way over the top. Much less would have convinced the public to support the war effort.
 
Unbelievable that you are running with a case built entirely on innuendo.

The case Vincent Bugliosi generated against George W. Bush and company is not innuendo. It is real and prosecutable.

The releases from the secret Energy task force Dick Cheney held in the spring of 2001 are not innuendo. The people who attended were oil barons who did not want their names released and the few items forced to be released from those meetings show they were very interested in Iraq's oil.

It isn't innuendo that if the Bush administration lied about Iraq that they are likely to have been lying about 911 also.

I suppose you think Marvin Bush's being on the Securacom board was just a coincidence.
 
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The issue I have with the Bush and Co. did 9/11 so the US could/would go to war.

Has not past Presidents committed US troops to war on a lot less than the actions of 9/11?

imo, it was way over the top. Much less would have convinced the public to support the war effort.

According to Dick Cheney this was an open ended war that will not end in our lifetime. Just think about the absurdity of that statement and the fact that the public didn't even balk at it.

There is not a chance the American people would have suffered 8 years of war in Iraq and now 13 years in Afghanistan, without a serious reason being given to them.
 
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All of what you think was a motive to do 911 is also explained by these same people taken advantage of and manipulating things *a bit* with the intent to cash out... sort of making lemonade from lemons. NB these types make out no matter what happens and so it's a stretch to think they would engineer such an elaborate conspiracy when much simpler BS can be used to achieve their political and economic goals.

Really this crew is too stupid to plan what the CT believe they did. And they haven't won a war in since WWII despite overwhelming advantage.

Can you imagine planning the inside job? It boggles the mind.

Calling the Bush administration stupid is in itself stupid and is mouthed by some much too easily and without a basis.

As for your "they haven't won a war since WWII", it sounds like you forget what happened in Iraq and Kuwait in 1992.

Vietnam, Afghanistan, and the recent venture in Iraq by the Bush administration, were not wars so much as they were occupations. The 2003 Iraq war with Saddam's Army was won in a few weeks. It was the 8 year occupation afterwards that did not work out too well. There is an old saying that you can do everything with a bayonet but sit on it.
 
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The case Vincent Bugliosi generated against George W. Bush and company is not innuendo. It is real and prosecutable.

The releases from the secret Energy task force Dick Cheney held in the spring of 2001 are not innuendo. The people who attended were oil barons who did not want their names released and the few items forced to be released from those meetings show they were very interested in Iraq's oil.

It isn't innuendo that if the Bush administration lied about Iraq that they are likely to have been lying about 911 also.

I suppose you think Marvin Bush's being on the Securacom board was just a coincidence.

And? What significance is there to "Marvin Bush's being on the Securacom board"?
 
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