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Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348, W:350]

PW4000

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It is so sad that after almost 13 full years we still have no official correction to the official story telling of 911.

On September 11th, 2001, I stood with a small group of pilots in an general aviation executive terminal between flights in stark terror and disbelief as CNN cut to a camera showing the first tower just after it had been struck. Being told by CNN that they had confirmed it was a commercial aircraft that struck the tower, my first statement to those around me was a sarcastic one: "somebody blew the river approach really bad..."

Having flown the visual and instrument approaches into Kennedy (KJFK) and La Guardia (KLGA) many times prior, I could not subdue the imagery of what that approach into La Guardia looks like from the cockpit of an aircraft entering traffic for runway 22. My mind kept racing between both approaches, KJFK and KLGA, trying to understand how someone could have got it so completely wrong, when all of a sudden in comes the second aircraft from the right side of the screen just before it impacts the second tower.

Minutes later, a third aircraft strikes the Pentagon and a fourth aircraft was reported as possibly targeting the White House [as reported in real-time]. At this point, the entire lounge exploded into a barrage of cell phone calls to family members just to make sure that everyone at home was ok.

Rapid channel surfing begins between CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and Fox News, to see if there were other strikes that one or another network might have missed. Settling back to CNN, we hear reports of a possible fourth aircraft off the eastern seaboard that had either been shot down or that had crashed somewhere in Pennsylvania, or possibly West Virgina. Just as suddenly, CNN breaks from the Pentagon coverage and feeds off a Local Television Station's News Helicopter as it hovered over a field in Shanksville, PA. This is exactly what we saw that day:



Not only does CNN show you absolutely no physical evidence that a Boeing 757 had either a high or low angle of attack impact with terrain, but also in that video, CNN goes to great length to let you know that Mark, called his mother that day just before impact. Of course, when Mark, calls his mother, he makes sure that he tells his mother that his name is "Mark Bingham." Of course, we all know that mothers are the first person on planet earth to forget the sound of their childrens voice on the telephone and we certainly know that mothers forget the last name of their sons and daughters over time.

Aside from Mark "Bingham" making it abundantly clear to his mother that he was indeed "Mark Bingham," there is NOTHING even remotely resembling a Boeing 757-222 debris field that looked like it came from either a high or low angle of attack crash site, seen in the videos of those non-government officials who were first responders on site:




And, of course, we have the never to be seen again initial broadcast from Fox News, where the reporter covering the story and showing video from directly above the "crash site" concluded that there was nothing there - that you could not see anything in the debris field that was larger than "a phone book:"




For this post, I have gone back through my personal log books and noted each type of aircraft I have ever flown in my life as a pilot. Here is that list of aircraft:

Fixed Wing -

Tiger Grumman AA5B (my very first flight)
Cessna 172
Cessna 152
Cessna 182RG
Cessna T210
Super Decathlon
Citabria 7ECA
Extra 200
North American P-51D Mustang
North American T-6 Texan
Beechcraft T-6 Texan II
Pilatus PC-7
Mooney 201
Cessna Caravan 206
Cessna Caravan 208
Cessna 310
Cessna Conquest 441
Piper PA 28
Piper PA 31
Piper PA 31T
Mooney 201
Beechcraft King Air C90
Beechcraft King Air 200
Beechcraft King Air 350
Cessna Citation CJ1
Cessna Citation CJ2
Cessna Citation CJ4
L-39C
L-39ZA
Alpha Jet A
Alpha Jet E
Learjet 35
Learjet 45xr
Learjet 60
Global Express BD700
Gulfstream GII
Gulfstream GIII
Gulfstream GIV
ERJ 145
CRJ 700
CRJ 800
Boeing 737-300
Boeing 737-500
Boeing 737-800
Boeing 757-200
C5-B Galaxy
Cessna T-37 Tweet
Northrup T-38 Talon
F-15C
F-15E

Rotor - (Not as Pilot In Command)

Bell Jet Ranger 206 (no rotor license)
Eurocopter EC130 (no rotor license)


I have no axe to grind with people who do not fly, or do not love aviation and aerospace as I do. However, I do have deep concerns about people who do not fly and do not love aviation and aerospace, and who mysteriously gained the knowledge and expertise to declare that they do in fact see the crash site signature of a Boeing 757 on the ground in Shanksville. I have a real concern about people who proclaim such things because to anyone having any history with aviation (commercial, general, military or otherwise), it becomes readily apparent that the official story tellers have not told the absolute truth about what happened in Shanksville.

If the official story cannot produce the reminants of a downed Boeing 757 in Shanksville, then the entirety of the official story is suspect. Pilots despise stories of downed aircraft. We cringe internally every single time we hear about an aircraft having gone down. We love aircraft, aviation, aerospace and everything that goes with it - the community itself and the people who make it a reality each day of the week around the world. We we do not love, are people who use aircraft for ill purposes.

Shanksville, is void of material evidence that rises to the level of a commercial airframe disaster site. The FAA knows this. The NTSB knows this. United Airlines knows this. The Government knows this. Anyone with genuine flying experience in high-performance multi-engine jet aircraft knows this. So, why does the country still suffer under the delusion that somehow Shanksville, looks like a commercial heavy crash site should - when nothing could be further from the truth.

My signature says it all. 911, is still our nation's most important litmus test for the preservation of our freedoms and our rights as Citizens. We have yet to pass this test and indeed we have failed this test thus far. 13 years later, we find ourselves still taking that test and still failing it miserably. Thus, there is no wonder that 7 years after the biggest home cooked attack on U.S. soil, that we The People sat through the biggest Financial and Economic fraud ever perpetrated on our nation without so much as lifting a finger in protest.

Is it too late for our Republic? Have we become so blind and so complacent that we no longer care about truth? Are we willing to accept any "story" just as long as our way of life or lifestyle is not negatively impacted? Have we reached the point where we are willing to tolerate outright fraud and murder in the name of necessity, freedom and the American way? Do we have no morals? Do we simply not give a damn anymore?

I ask these questions because we cannot be both blind and stupid at the same time. We cannot look at the video and photos of Shanksville, and conclude that we see a commercial aircraft crash site of any magnitude, without being either Blind or Stupid in doing so. So, which one are we exactly: Blind or Stupid? I have a hard time believing that we are both.

Shanksville. THE smoking gun.
 
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re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It is so sad that after almost 13 full years we still have no official correction to the official story telling of 911.

On September 11th, 2001, I stood with a small group of pilots in an general aviation executive terminal between flights in stark terror and disbelief as CNN cut to a camera showing the first tower just after it had been struck. Being told by CNN that they had confirmed it was a commercial aircraft that struck the tower, my first statement to those around me was a sarcastic one: "somebody blew the river approach really bad..."

Having flown the visual and instrument approaches into Kennedy (KJFK) and La Guardia (KLGA) many times prior, I could not subdue the imagery of what that approach into La Guardia looks like from the cockpit of an aircraft entering traffic for runway 22. My mind kept racing between both approaches, KJFK and KLGA, trying to understand how someone could have got it so completely wrong, when all of a sudden in comes the second aircraft from the right side of the screen just before it impacts the second tower.

Minutes later, a third aircraft strikes the Pentagon and a fourth aircraft was reported as possibly targeting the White House [as reported in real-time]. At this point, the entire lounge exploded into a barrage of cell phone calls to family members just to make sure that everyone at home was ok.

Rapid channel surfing begins between CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and Fox News, to see if there were other strikes that one or another network might have missed. Settling back to CNN, we hear reports of a possible fourth aircraft off the eastern seaboard that had either been shot down or that had crashed somewhere in Pennsylvania, or possibly West Virgina. Just as suddenly, CNN breaks from the Pentagon coverage and feeds off a Local Television Station's News Helicopter as it hovered over a field in Shanksville, PA. This is exactly what we saw that day:

Not only does CNN show you absolutely no physical evidence that a Boeing 757 had either a high or low angle of attack impact with terrain, but also in that video, CNN goes to great length to let you know that Mark, called his mother that day just before impact. Of course, when Mark, calls his mother, he makes sure that he tells his mother that his name is "Mark Bingham." Of course, we all know that mothers are the first person on planet earth to forget the sound of their childrens voice on the telephone and we certainly know that mothers forget the last name of their sons and daughters over time.

Aside from Mark "Bingham" making it abundantly clear to his mother that he was indeed "Mark Bingham," there is NOTHING even remotely resembling a Boeing 757-222 debris field that looked like it came from either a high or low angle of attack crash site, seen in the videos of those non-government officials who were first responders on site:




And, of course, we have the never to be seen again initial broadcast from Fox News, where the reporter covering the story and showing video from directly above the "crash site" concluded that there was nothing there - that you could not see anything in the debris field that was larger than "a phone book:"

For this post, I have gone back through my personal log books and noted each type of aircraft I have ever flown in my life as a pilot. [Text and list omitted for space.]

I have no axe to grind with people who do not fly, or do not love aviation and aerospace as I do. However, I do have deep concerns about people who do not fly and do not love aviation and aerospace, and who mysteriously gained the knowledge and expertise to declare that they do in fact see the crash site signature of a Boeing 757 on the ground in Shanksville. I have a real concern about people who proclaim such things because to anyone having any history with aviation (commercial, general, military or otherwise), it becomes readily apparent that the official story tellers have not told the absolute truth about what happened in Shanksville.

If the official story cannot produce the reminants of a downed Boeing 757 in Shanksville, then the entirety of the official story is suspect. Pilots despise stories of downed aircraft. We cringe internally every single time we hear about an aircraft having gone down. We love aircraft, aviation, aerospace and everything that goes with it - the community itself and the people who make it a reality each day of the week around the world. We we do not love, are people who use aircraft for ill purposes.

Shanksville, is void of material evidence that rises to the level of a commercial airframe disaster site. The FAA knows this. The NTSB knows this. United Airlines knows this. The Government knows this. Anyone with genuine flying experience in high-performance multi-engine jet aircraft knows this. So, why does the country still suffer under the delusion that somehow Shanksville, looks like a commercial heavy crash site should - when nothing could be further from the truth.

My signature says it all. 911, is still our nation's most important litmus test for the preservation of our freedoms and our rights as Citizens. We have yet to pass this test and indeed we have failed this test thus far. 13 years later, we find ourselves still taking that test and still failing it miserably. Thus, there is no wonder that 7 years after the biggest home cooked attack on U.S. soil, that we The People sat through the biggest Financial and Economic fraud ever perpetrated on our nation without so much as lifting a finger in protest.

Is it too late for our Republic? Have we become so blind and so complacent that we no longer care about truth? Are we willing to accept any "story" just as long as our way of life or lifestyle is not negatively impacted? Have we reached the point where we are willing to tolerate outright fraud and murder in the name of necessity, freedom and the American way? Do we have no morals? Do we simply not give a damn anymore?

I ask these questions because we cannot be both blind and stupid at the same time. We cannot look at the video and photos of Shanksville, and conclude that we see a commercial aircraft crash site of any magnitude, without being either Blind or Stupid in doing so. So, which one are we exactly: Blind or Stupid? I have a hard time believing that we are both.

Shanksville. THE smoking gun.


What you've written here is very interesting. But there's a truth here that I personally can't get past.

Unless someone "in on" this suspected conspiracy comes forward, the story (if there is one) will never be told outside of conspiracy posts on forums like this one. It is simply unbelievable to me that, if 911 was homegrown, not one of the hundreds of people who would have HAD to be involved has come forward to outline the part they played. It simply isn't that easy to keep secrets.

You've piqued my interest, though. And I'll be looking around the internet to see what else is out there on the crash site.

A number of years ago there was a major crash at O'Hare Field, about five miles from my house. The debris was incredible. Body parts everywhere. Weeks to clean up.

500


The flags mark body parts. It happened on take-off when an engine fell off the plane. Full of fuel; obviously a major major fire . . . it does make one wonder.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

You don't still fly planes, right?
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It's so sad that truthers still believe their conspiracy dogsqueeze and obsess so much of their pathetic lives over it....
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It's so sad that truthers still believe their conspiracy dogsqueeze and obsess so much of their pathetic lives over it....

I've never been that involved in the conspiracy angle, as I've dismissed it out of hand. But when I think about that airplane crash and the debris that wasn't there, it does raise questions in MY mind. I think the OPer did a good job of outlining his thoughts . . . and he's gotten me to thinking.

Look at the difference between the debris at the O'Hare crash and his photos. It is curious.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

The UA 737 that crashed in COS went straight in, as did the PSA BAE146 in California. Tiny debris fields, that is what happens when you go in vertical.

The conspiracy geeks have had so many years now, and no actual proof or data, just the usual wank and fap.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Why does that make a difference?

The thought is frightening and kinda clears up the Malaysia thing.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

The UA 737 that crashed in COS went straight in, as did the PSA BAE146 in California. Tiny debris fields, that is what happens when you go in vertical.

The conspiracy geeks have had so many years now, and no actual proof or data, just the usual wank and fap.

PSA BAE 146 (PSA Flight 1771) hit a speed of 770 mph (that's faster then Mach 1) at 70 degrees. UA 93 hit a speed of 563 mph at 40 degrees inverted. Those are official numbers.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

...The flags mark body parts. It happened on take-off when an engine fell off the plane. Full of fuel; obviously a major major fire . . . it does make one wonder.

The real conspiracy theory is the official story. That's the real nasty part of this whole thing. They've used a conspiracy theory as de facto "truth" and then painted all evidence that clearly points away from such a theory as "untrue conspiracy."

Unfortunately, there were no such flags outlining body parts directly after the crash and initial investigation by the government in Shanksville. The Mayor and several other non-Federal Government agents, people who were actual First Responders to the scene, said that they say no bodies and no evidence that an aircraft had crashed. They all say roughly the exact same thing, that there was a smoking hole in the ground and minor debris around the hole. More than one First Responder alluded to the debris as having no part that was larger than the size of a phone book. Others said all they saw was debris that looked like U.S. Mail.

What we do not see in any photo or any video, is the wreckage commensurate with a large scale commercial jet having crashed in a field. We don't find the major components of the aircraft that typically survive the impact and the resultant fire. Those items just disappeared from Shanksville, altogether.

If there is no commercial aircraft, then there is no commercial aircraft crash site. We do have a crash site at Shanksville, no doubt. However, Shanksville, is not swamp land like ValueJet in the Florida Everglades. It is not even like Flight 800 which went down in the water. Flight 93, was said to have collided with the earth and such an impact had to have been either a low or high angle of attack collision. Those kinds of collisions leave very different forensic signatures given the way the energy of the aircraft is released into the surface of the earth.

The kinetics of the site at Shanksville, should have preserved a lot more of the aircraft than we see in either the videos or the photos. The problem is that there simply is no commercial grade aircraft in any configuration on the ground in Shanksville - according to the video, photos and first hand accounts of all non-federal government employees/agents.

AFTER the feds arrived, THEN people started popping up on camera talking about the "aircraft" and its "conditions" on the ground, even when they refused to take the cameras and point them at the evidence. After the feds arrived, people began to sudden "see" Flight 93 on the ground - yet refuse to show the public the actual aircraft.

This is definitely the smoking gun to 911, because if Shanksville, did not happen the way they said it did - then we have another Flight 370 on our hands - in that an aircraft can depart an airport at some point on planet earth and then just disappear into thin air.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It's so sad that truthers still believe their conspiracy dogsqueeze and obsess so much of their pathetic lives over it....

It is far more sad that people allow their government to lie to them, kill and murder people in the process and loot a sovereign nation of its natural resources as a direct result of the lies they told - without The People rising up and demanding that the truth be told and a full account of the fact be given.

And, if you can explain why the FBI still holds on to its story about why it refuses to release the remaining videos showing various angles on the object that struck the Pentagon, I'd be more than happy to hear your explanation.

I'll ask the question again: WHERE IS THE AIRCRAFT on the ground in Shanksville? Where are the bodies? Why do you see nothing but a smoking hole in the ground and papers laying about - blowing in the breeze?

Shanksville, is your smoking gun. Obsess over that. That should keep you up at night. That should give you nightmares. Go read about Northwoods, just in case you think 911 is some kind of new idea. 911 was old soup finally warmed up and served on the America People. There was nothing new about what happened on 911 - the day it happened. It was very old news then.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It is so sad that after almost 13 full years we still have no official correction to the official story telling of 911.
.
.
.

I have a challenge for you. Give me the official story, as it would be if you had that correction. Speculate. Use your vast knowledge base. Keep waht rings true, change what does not. Give an account.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

PSA BAE 146 (PSA Flight 1771) hit a speed of 770 mph (that's faster then Mach 1) at 70 degrees. UA 93 hit a speed of 563 mph at 40 degrees inverted. Those are official numbers.

Well, that's the problem with official numbers - they are not always officially accurate, just "official."

Take Flight 77, for example. Where did they obtain the official numbers on that one? They claim they got it from the aircraft's FDR. Yet, when you examine the actual data set turned-over via freedom of information request, it shows a different story. It shows Flight 77 reaching speeds straight and level that are not aerodynamically possible for that particular aircraft. It shows an aircraft accelerating to over 480kts with its wings on the horizon no higher than 78ft agl. It shows the aircraft pulling out of a positive 9+g dive before getting wings and nose level with the horizon and THEN continuing to accelerate beyond its aerodynamic limits.

In other words, the data offered up by the government runs contrary to the actual Flight Envelope of the Boeing 757, and any Boeing 757 pilot will tell you that, if they have looked at the same data the NTSB claims came from Flight 77. Not to mention the fact that the alleged pilot, Hani Hanjuour, failed a Cessna 172 check-ride before piloting his Boeing 757 like Test Pilot. How could Mr. Hanjour, fail a simple 172 check, yet masterfully control an aircraft with a kinetic energy profile several times that of a Cessna 172. It is not possible.

Hani, would have no clue about the tactile sensation of operating a multi-engine turbine airframe of that size and weight. He would have no idea about how such an aircraft behaved in a dive, or pulling out from a dive, or in such close proximity with the ground at speeds that were aerodynamically outside the performance envelope of the 75. You can't simply fail to control a 172, and then develop the tactile knowledge, skill and expertise to push a complex multi-engine turbine commercial airframe to its absolute limits of kinetic performance.

Nothing about the weapons allegedly used in 911, make any sense to me.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

I have a challenge for you. Give me the official story, as it would be if you had that correction. Speculate. Use your vast knowledge base. Keep waht rings true, change what does not. Give an account.


Here's the problem with what you say. It assumes that merely because there is no pat answer that counters the official story, that the official story must be true. Let's be clear about something, that is not Occam's Razor applied, not even close. There are competing Conspiracy Theories about what happened on September 11th, 2001. The problem here, is that government operatives and no so open minded people have used the phrase "conspiracy theory" as an slight against people wanting more than just fancy tales of aircraft "disintegrating" upon contact with buildings and the like (This is the official conclusion of National Geographic, etc.).

What we do not know is exactly every single detail of 911. What we do know is that aircraft don't disappear into hardened earth and don't disintegrate inside steel reinforced concrete buildings. We know that passengers should be able to breathe without problems even when their aircraft is being skyjacked - so having a flight attendant tell you that people are having difficulty breathing or cannot breath at all, should raise some flags as to WHY that would be the case, merely because the aircraft was being skyjacked. We do know that the NTSB studies and analyzes both high and low angle of attack crash sites as a normal and routine course of business for them and we do know that high AOA vs low AOA impacts leave different signatures within the debris field. Therefore, when we come upon an alleged crash site that contains near zero evidence of either a high or low AOA crash site involving an aircraft weighing close to 200,000lbs, then that should raise some red flags for us.

When we witness men wearing suits and white dress shirts with business ties, running around the crash site and picking up pieces of the aircraft when victims are still inside burning buildings and no NTSB investigation has been initiated, that should raise some red flags for us - because instead of being worried about several very select pieces of hardware laying on the ground, they should have left that material for the NTSB investigators (that's there job) and helped the first responders get people out of the burning building.

When they show you pictures of the compressor section of a turbine laying at the corner of Church and Murray, that does not match the engine compressor section that came from either aircraft that struck the towers - then that kind of things should raise red flags for us. When they show picture of landing gear inside a building that is not commensurate with the landing gear of the aircraft said to have struck said building, then that should raise red flags for us.

When they tell us that internal temperatures inside the building were so hot as to chemically sublimate (disintegrate) the entire airframe of a Boeing 757, such that normal recovery of parts and survivable components is not physically possible, yet those same temperatures are not hot enough to vanquish human flesh located in exactly the same area - then that should raise more red flags for us.

When they tell us that they've confiscated more than two dozen video surveillance cameras containing footage of multiple angles to the Pentagon near the point of impact and then tell us that NONE of those videos showed anything material or relevant to 911, but then refuse to release that same video footage to the public showing what did actually strike the Pentagon, then that is something that should raise red flags for us.

When the Department of Defense and the Air Force take over the role of lead crash site investigator from the NTSB at sites that are NOT government property, that should raise red flags for us - especially when the NTSB has volumes more experience in commercial aviation crash site investigations.

And, that's just the tip of the iceberg for red flags.

I've always stated that I don't know exactly what happened, but that the official hogwash being served up to my nose won't pass the smell test for credibility.

Now, if you would be so kind - please show me an aircraft debris field that is commensurate with a Boeing 757-222 having impacted the earth at either a High AOA or Low AOA approach. Also, do we have any DNA evidence that does not come from a government lab, or an official physical body count on the premises at Shanksville?

Also, please impeach the witness of the Mayor of Shanksville, as a First Responder who said he saw "no airplane."
 
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re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Here's the problem with what you say. It assumes that merely because there is no pat answer that counters the official story, that the official story must be true. ....
There are competing Conspiracy Theories about what happened on September 11th, 2001.
.
.
.

Here is the problem with what you say. It assumes that there is some other story with or without pat answers.

You say:
There are competing Conspiracy Theories about what happened on September 11th, 2001.

I say great. Let me know what those theories are? Everytime I ask, I get stonewalled. I will take it as a given that any competing theory will have holes in it. It is guess work after all.

You sound like you know about these competeing theories about what happened on Sept 11, 2001. Tell me about them.

Don't just allude to them as if they exist. Tell me, point me in the direction, something, anything. Just do not respond telling me the official story must be wrong.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

The UA 737 that crashed in COS went straight in, as did the PSA BAE146 in California. Tiny debris fields, that is what happens when you go in vertical.

The conspiracy geeks have had so many years now, and no actual proof or data, just the usual wank and fap.


yeh but theyre the government and they got the guns so they can get away with it.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

The UA 737 that crashed in COS went straight in, as did the PSA BAE146 in California. Tiny debris fields, that is what happens when you go in vertical.

The conspiracy geeks have had so many years now, and no actual proof or data, just the usual wank and fap.


That's nuts and there is no two ways about it. Tiny debris fields? Have you ever personally witnesses either high or low angle of attack crash site of a commercial airliner the size of those involved in 911? I have. I've been on site before - I know what I'm talking about, do you?

Can you define the key differences between High-AOA High Speed and Low-AOA High Speed flights into terrain? I can. The angle is only part of the story, the rest of the story is the crash site substrate itself and its ability to reflect energy back into the airframe. Landing gear components don't shred themselves into millions of tiny indiscernible pieces merely because it conveniently fits the willful delusions of those wanting to believe that their government would never (ever) attack them. Wing root extensions don't merely vanish into trillions of undetectable shivers merely because one prefers to delude themselves into thinking they can. Entire cross-sectional empennage attachment sections don't simply vanish into thin air, merely because the Tiny Debris Field Theory wants it to vanish. Turbine engine compressor sections don't change their metallurgical properties and all of a sudden become sublimation candidates merely because National Geographic told you so.

I strongly suggest that many of you GO BACK to college and get into some Chemistry Labs and Physics Labs, and start recalling some of the basic tenets of fundamental Science, before putting forward such Tiny Debris Field Theories that can't possibly hold water in the light of day.

This is what a debris field is supposed to look like:
2ainfad.jpg


Here's another. Notice the man carrying a human torso:

As the tears roll down my face, I will post more pictures because some of you really need to wake up to the reality of what happened on 911. This is not easy for me.

Here's another. The hard components remain fairly intact (Engines):
6fo1zm.jpg


I don't enjoy doing this:

There is no joy in doing this:


I will stop there in the hope that those of you still asleep on 911, will soon awaken. These are some of the images that we should have seen at Shanksville and at the Pentagon. Yet, we saw nothing like this - not even close to this.
 
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re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

And here we go again,....

Just one event of the many that day removed from context.
Preponderance of evidence ignored to concentrate on a single anomaly the OP poster can not understand.
Reversed burden of proof
No alternative hypothesis
And it appears the OP stopped doing research the afternoon of 9/11/2001 when they turned off the TV news.

More classic conspiracy (non)thinking. I eagerly anticipate this thread becoming yet another circular road to nowhere.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

So what hit at Shanksville? Where did the plane go, and what happened to the passengers?
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It shows the aircraft pulling out of a positive 9+g dive...

Yay, another balls-ammo disciple. It wasn't even close to 9+g's bub. I dare you to show the math.

Just like how the engines aren't what you claim they are, you are once again wrong. Aren't you sick of getting your *** handed to you on stuff like this yet?

Oh and thanks for the warning on those pics you posted. ****ing real classy to (img) tag those... not to mention that you're using those images to promote your idiotic conspiracy nonsense. Yeah, I'm sure you're really crying and "don't like doing this". :roll:
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

It is so sad that after almost 13 full years we still have no official correction to the official story telling of 911.

On September 11th, 2001, I stood with a small group of pilots in an general aviation executive terminal between flights in stark terror and disbelief as CNN cut to a camera showing the first tower just after it had been struck. Being told by CNN that they had confirmed it was a commercial aircraft that struck the tower, my first statement to those around me was a sarcastic one: "somebody blew the river approach really bad..."

Having flown the visual and instrument approaches into Kennedy (KJFK) and La Guardia (KLGA) many times prior, I could not subdue the imagery of what that approach into La Guardia looks like from the cockpit of an aircraft entering traffic for runway 22. My mind kept racing between both approaches, KJFK and KLGA, trying to understand how someone could have got it so completely wrong, when all of a sudden in comes the second aircraft from the right side of the screen just before it impacts the second tower.

Minutes later, a third aircraft strikes the Pentagon and a fourth aircraft was reported as possibly targeting the White House [as reported in real-time]. At this point, the entire lounge exploded into a barrage of cell phone calls to family members just to make sure that everyone at home was ok.

Rapid channel surfing begins between CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and Fox News, to see if there were other strikes that one or another network might have missed. Settling back to CNN, we hear reports of a possible fourth aircraft off the eastern seaboard that had either been shot down or that had crashed somewhere in Pennsylvania, or possibly West Virgina. Just as suddenly, CNN breaks from the Pentagon coverage and feeds off a Local Television Station's News Helicopter as it hovered over a field in Shanksville, PA. This is exactly what we saw that day:



Not only does CNN show you absolutely no physical evidence that a Boeing 757 had either a high or low angle of attack impact with terrain, but also in that video, CNN goes to great length to let you know that Mark, called his mother that day just before impact. Of course, when Mark, calls his mother, he makes sure that he tells his mother that his name is "Mark Bingham." Of course, we all know that mothers are the first person on planet earth to forget the sound of their childrens voice on the telephone and we certainly know that mothers forget the last name of their sons and daughters over time.

Aside from Mark "Bingham" making it abundantly clear to his mother that he was indeed "Mark Bingham," there is NOTHING even remotely resembling a Boeing 757-222 debris field that looked like it came from either a high or low angle of attack crash site, seen in the videos of those non-government officials who were first responders on site:







I have no axe to grind with people who do not fly, or do not love aviation and aerospace as I do. However, I do have deep concerns about people who do not fly and do not love aviation and aerospace, and who mysteriously gained the knowledge and expertise to declare that they do in fact see the crash site signature of a Boeing 757 on the ground in Shanksville. I have a real concern about people who proclaim such things because to anyone having any history with aviation (commercial, general, military or otherwise), it becomes readily apparent that the official story tellers have not told the absolute truth about what happened in Shanksville.

If the official story cannot produce the reminants of a downed Boeing 757 in Shanksville, then the entirety of the official story is suspect. Pilots despise stories of downed aircraft. We cringe internally every single time we hear about an aircraft having gone down. We love aircraft, aviation, aerospace and everything that goes with it - the community itself and the people who make it a reality each day of the week around the world. We we do not love, are people who use aircraft for ill purposes.

Shanksville, is void of material evidence that rises to the level of a commercial airframe disaster site. The FAA knows this. The NTSB knows this. United Airlines knows this. The Government knows this. Anyone with genuine flying experience in high-performance multi-engine jet aircraft knows this. So, why does the country still suffer under the delusion that somehow Shanksville, looks like a commercial heavy crash site should - when nothing could be further from the truth.

My signature says it all. 911, is still our nation's most important litmus test for the preservation of our freedoms and our rights as Citizens. We have yet to pass this test and indeed we have failed this test thus far. 13 years later, we find ourselves still taking that test and still failing it miserably. Thus, there is no wonder that 7 years after the biggest home cooked attack on U.S. soil, that we The People sat through the biggest Financial and Economic fraud ever perpetrated on our nation without so much as lifting a finger in protest.

Is it too late for our Republic? Have we become so blind and so complacent that we no longer care about truth? Are we willing to accept any "story" just as long as our way of life or lifestyle is not negatively impacted? Have we reached the point where we are willing to tolerate outright fraud and murder in the name of necessity, freedom and the American way? Do we have no morals? Do we simply not give a damn anymore?

I ask these questions because we cannot be both blind and stupid at the same time. We cannot look at the video and photos of Shanksville, and conclude that we see a commercial aircraft crash site of any magnitude, without being either Blind or Stupid in doing so. So, which one are we exactly: Blind or Stupid? I have a hard time believing that we are both.

Shanksville. THE smoking gun.


more truther drivel....no one is banning news reports and your Mark Bingham slur is just more nonsense that has been explained. Besides there was airliner debris, they found the black box and frankly your appeal to your pilot's license giving you magically insight is silly. You have no evidence and are lying to perpetuate your nonsense.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

...your appeal to your pilot's license giving you magically insight is silly.

Notice his username. He claims that the engines were not the right type for the 9/11 planes, and got embarrassed here years ago with photo evidence that proved him completely wrong. Now he's some "super expert" that's flown every type of plane ever built, yet somehow can't comprehend that slow moving crash landings where the pilot was trying to save lives will look different than a suicidal jihadist smashing a plane nose first straight into the ground at high speed.

Usual truther babble.
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

I've never been that involved in the conspiracy angle, as I've dismissed it out of hand. But when I think about that airplane crash and the debris that wasn't there, it does raise questions in MY mind. I think the OPer did a good job of outlining his thoughts . . . and he's gotten me to thinking.

Look at the difference between the debris at the O'Hare crash and his photos. It is curious.

There is a huge difference between the crashes. I think you are talking about Flight 191

1. The ground....the O'hare crash occurred in a developed area with fairly hard ground while Shankesville the soft ground allowed for more to be buried.


2. The pilots Flight 191 were fighting to save the craft and they were not nearly at full speed trying to crash and terrorists wanted to cause the most damage...

3. The scenes were not that different if you were on the ground. Guess where this quote is from: "We didn't see one body intact, just trunks, hands, arms, heads, and parts of legs. And we can't tell whether they were male or female, or whether they were adult or child, because they were all charred."
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

The real conspiracy theory is the official story. That's the real nasty part of this whole thing. They've used a conspiracy theory as de facto "truth" and then painted all evidence that clearly points away from such a theory as "untrue conspiracy."

Unfortunately, there were no such flags outlining body parts directly after the crash and initial investigation by the government in Shanksville. The Mayor and several other non-Federal Government agents, people who were actual First Responders to the scene, said that they say no bodies and no evidence that an aircraft had crashed. They all say roughly the exact same thing, that there was a smoking hole in the ground and minor debris around the hole. More than one First Responder alluded to the debris as having no part that was larger than the size of a phone book. Others said all they saw was debris that looked like U.S. Mail.

What we do not see in any photo or any video, is the wreckage commensurate with a large scale commercial jet having crashed in a field. We don't find the major components of the aircraft that typically survive the impact and the resultant fire. Those items just disappeared from Shanksville, altogether.

If there is no commercial aircraft, then there is no commercial aircraft crash site. We do have a crash site at Shanksville, no doubt. However, Shanksville, is not swamp land like ValueJet in the Florida Everglades. It is not even like Flight 800 which went down in the water. Flight 93, was said to have collided with the earth and such an impact had to have been either a low or high angle of attack collision. Those kinds of collisions leave very different forensic signatures given the way the energy of the aircraft is released into the surface of the earth.

The kinetics of the site at Shanksville, should have preserved a lot more of the aircraft than we see in either the videos or the photos. The problem is that there simply is no commercial grade aircraft in any configuration on the ground in Shanksville - according to the video, photos and first hand accounts of all non-federal government employees/agents.

AFTER the feds arrived, THEN people started popping up on camera talking about the "aircraft" and its "conditions" on the ground, even when they refused to take the cameras and point them at the evidence. After the feds arrived, people began to sudden "see" Flight 93 on the ground - yet refuse to show the public the actual aircraft.

This is definitely the smoking gun to 911, because if Shanksville, did not happen the way they said it did - then we have another Flight 370 on our hands - in that an aircraft can depart an airport at some point on planet earth and then just disappear into thin air.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about. Over 600 pounds of human remains were recovered from all passengers. Large sections of the aircraft were found as well as the black boxes. Tell me are you suggesting that that was made up? If so why? How do you know? What is your evidence?
 
re: Shanksville: THE Smoking Gun & THE Litmus Test [W:348]

Another truther who knows not of what they speak
 
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