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A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132:1312]

Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

That is probably the most articulate and sensible thing you have said so far.

So no evidence by you that the sound deadening was used to cover up the explosions you think happened.

Come back when you have something of substance to say and backup.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

So no evidence by you that the sound deadening was used to cover up the explosions you think happened.

Come back when you have something of substance to say and backup.

I never said that they were. You asked what I objected to about NIST's hypothetical blast scenario for WTC7. I told you one issue was the noise level, and another was not allowing for the possibility of noise suppression techniques being used. You asked for evidence and I gave you a link to a US military paper on the topic.
What I said is that it should have been considered in NIST's hypothetical scenario.

Noted that you did not respond re NIST's 140dB at 1/2 a mile claim.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

I never said that they were. You asked what I objected to about NIST's hypothetical blast scenario for WTC7. I told you one issue was the noise level, and another was not allowing for the possibility of noise suppression techniques being used. You asked for evidence and I gave you a link to a US military paper on the topic.
What I said is that it should have been considered in NIST's hypothetical scenario.

Noted that you did not respond re NIST's 140dB at 1/2 a mile claim.

Noted. taking posts out of context again. If you read and understood the section, you would have your answer. I responded, can't help if you don't like the response.

Done playing "what if".
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Noted. taking posts out of context again.

And deliberately so too. You really need to stop doing that.

If you read and understood the section, you would have your answer. I responded, can't help if you don't like the response.
Done playing "what if".

Well it’s not like playing “what is” will suit you any better. You asked about a hypothetical “what if” and when you go the response you didn’t like it, and now you’re suddenly “done playing what if”.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Gerrycan provide a link to a Sandi Lab report that is in his opinion backs the claim that the wtc7 was taken down by controlled demolition.


Have you ever considered how the blast pits were designed?
What evidence do you have that the blast test done by Sandia is what happened to wtc7?

How all the surrounding glass survived the detonation of RDX or other explosives?

Besides, it has been suggested by some posters that govt. reports cannot be trusted. They are all lies..:mrgreen:




.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Gerrycan provide a link to a Sandi Lab report that is in his opinion backs the claim that the wtc7 was taken down by controlled demolition.


Have you ever considered how the blast pits were designed?
What evidence do you have that the blast test done by Sandia is what happened to wtc7?

How all the surrounding glass survived the detonation of RDX or other explosives?

Besides, it has been suggested by some posters that govt. reports cannot be trusted. They are all lies..:mrgreen:




.

No I am just illustrating the difference in pressure at 33ft with different baffling material.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

No I am just illustrating the difference in pressure at 33ft with different baffling material.

And so just WHAT "baffling" materials were used on 9/11 then ???

Care to point them out ...
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

I am questioning the hypothetical 130-140 decibel level. Even to state that range is ridiculous. 10dB is actually a big difference in reality.

And your expertise in determining decibel levels is ... what ... again ???
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

No I am just illustrating the difference in pressure at 33ft with different baffling material.

So you provided a nice trivia report that has little bearing on wtc7.

Unless you can show that such materials were used and were set up to withstand the fires within the building for several hours.

Nice try and misdirection.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

And so just WHAT "baffling" materials were used on 9/11 then ???

Care to point them out ...

I don't know. I was responding to a question regarding NIST's hypothetical blast scenario.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

So you provided a nice trivia report that has little bearing on wtc7.

Unless you can show that such materials were used and were set up to withstand the fires within the building for several hours.

Nice try and misdirection.

You asked me about a hypothetical scenario. For NIST's amount of RDX at that distance 140dB is excessive in any circumstances.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

You asked me about a hypothetical scenario. For NIST's amount of RDX at that distance 140dB is excessive in any circumstances.

I have asked you for your evidence of explosives and CD. You posted a vid that you admitted does not prove CD.

So if it was not fire it was ..........., that took down wtc7?

Your dodging and playing a game.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

I have asked you for your evidence of explosives and CD. You posted a vid that you admitted does not prove CD.

So if it was not fire it was ..........., that took down wtc7?

Your dodging and playing a game.

What YOU are dodging is the fact that the ARUP analysis not only confirms the absurdity of NIST's west walk off hypothesis for the girder, it also confirms that there should be no observed collapse whatsoever until the girder reaches 717C and the beam even higher.
Where do you see the girder near that temp in any of NIST case analysis ?
fl13csbcr.webpfl13csacr.webpNISTCFLMTMPS1-9p452.webp
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

I have asked you for your evidence of explosives and CD. You posted a vid that you admitted does not prove CD.

So if it was not fire it was ..........., that took down wtc7?

Your dodging and playing a game.

You're the one playing games Mike, and we both know it.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

You're the one playing games Mike, and we both know it.

No, we don't. another lie on your part.

Then please explain to Gerry in detail how it was thermite and mini neutron bombs. Maybe just maybe he will put some of his efforts in to analyzing Prager's work.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Gerrry.

Where in the NIST report does it state it was "walk off" due to temp on the girder you seem so focused on?

Are you saying the loss of cross members on numerous didn't happen?
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Gerrry.

Where in the NIST report does it state it was "walk off" due to temp on the girder you seem so focused on?

Are you saying the loss of cross members on numerous didn't happen?

Lateral movement of the C79-44 girder was due to the expansion and/or later the sagging of the floor beams that framed into it from the east. The axial expansion in the girder itself moves it's ends closer to the C79/44 faces and is important because the west sideplate on C79 overhangs the edge, and the girder expands to the inside of it and so cannot possibly fail to the west at the temperatures illustrated in the 3 NIST case outputs that you were shown earlier. Every ARUP simulation shows this trapping of the girder at lower temperatures than NIST claim to have observed it fail to the west at.
Even NIST's own figure shows it is trapped.
girder trap p298.webp

So the girder has to contract to the inside of the sideplate to be able to fail east or west. That requires it to be in a cooling phase and it will cool slower than the beams will making it impossible for the girder to fail as per NIST's stated hypothesis. *(ETA - Should say that Case 3 ARUP shows a failure in the heating phase due to sagging at temperature hundreds of degrees in excess of NIST's estimates.)
Shyam Sunder, WTC Lead Investigator, NIST,
"And the main reason the girder can be pushed off to the west is there is no opposing beam on this side trying to push it back to the east, because of the arrangement of the floor framing system. And, as you see in the sketch on your slides, you will see that once the bolts break, then you have essentially the girder moves off the seat and eventually falls."
 
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Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Lateral movement of the C79-44 girder was due to the expansion and/or later the sagging of the floor beams that framed into it from the east. The axial expansion in the girder itself moves it's ends closer to the C79/44 faces and is important because the west sideplate on C79 overhangs the edge, and the girder expands to the inside of it and so cannot possibly fail to the west at the temperatures illustrated in the 3 NIST case outputs that you were shown earlier. Every ARUP simulation shows this trapping of the girder at lower temperatures than NIST claim to have observed it fail to the west at.
Even NIST's own figure shows it is trapped.
View attachment 67198957

So the girder has to contract to the inside of the sideplate to be able to fail east or west. That requires it to be in a cooling phase and it will cool slower than the beams will making it impossible for the girder to fail as per NIST's stated hypothesis. *(ETA - Should say that Case 3 ARUP shows a failure in the heating phase due to sagging at temperature hundreds of degrees in excess of NIST's estimates.)
Shyam Sunder, WTC Lead Investigator, NIST,
"And the main reason the girder can be pushed off to the west is there is no opposing beam on this side trying to push it back to the east, because of the arrangement of the floor framing system. And, as you see in the sketch on your slides, you will see that once the bolts break, then you have essentially the girder moves off the seat and eventually falls."

Not really...

I would think that the girder was less than the distance between the two column webs... there would be no way to erect the frame... I am not entirely familar with the detail... but if the girder as you say was trapped... how do you think it got in there in the first place?

Answer: it wasn't trapped.

In fact steel frames are erected with beams which have gaps and those gaps are "spanned" by plates welded and bolted.

Often there are short beam stubs which are welded and or bolted to the column... and then main span of the beam is attached to the stub with plates on the web and or flanges.

You are familiar with these erection procedures and details?
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

I am not entirely familar with the detail.........
You are familiar with these erection procedures and details?

ARUP 700C heating case showing girder trapped by C79 west sideplate in heating phase due to axial expansion. PDF p286
spcontcase4p286.webp
ARUP 800C heating case showing girder trapped by C79 west sideplate in heating phase due to axial expansion. PDF p155
spcontcase3p155.webp
NIST showing girder trapped by C79 west sideplate in analysis. NIST NCSTAR 1-9 figure 8-26,
girder trap p298.webp

So now you are "entirely familiar with the detail" you should comment on Shyam Sunder's claim.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Lateral movement of the C79-44 girder was due to the expansion and/or later the sagging of the floor beams that framed into it from the east. The axial expansion in the girder itself moves it's ends closer to the C79/44 faces and is important because the west sideplate on C79 overhangs the edge, and the girder expands to the inside of it and so cannot possibly fail to the west at the temperatures illustrated in the 3 NIST case outputs that you were shown earlier. Every ARUP simulation shows this trapping of the girder at lower temperatures than NIST claim to have observed it fail to the west at.
Even NIST's own figure shows it is trapped.
View attachment 67198957

So the girder has to contract to the inside of the sideplate to be able to fail east or west. That requires it to be in a cooling phase and it will cool slower than the beams will making it impossible for the girder to fail as per NIST's stated hypothesis. *(ETA - Should say that Case 3 ARUP shows a failure in the heating phase due to sagging at temperature hundreds of degrees in excess of NIST's estimates.)
Shyam Sunder, WTC Lead Investigator, NIST,
"And the main reason the girder can be pushed off to the west is there is no opposing beam on this side trying to push it back to the east, because of the arrangement of the floor framing system. And, as you see in the sketch on your slides, you will see that once the bolts break, then you have essentially the girder moves off the seat and eventually falls."

"The probable collapse sequence that caused the global collapse of WTC7 was initiated by the buckling of Column 79, which was unsupported over 9 stories, after local-fire induced damage led to a cascade of floor failures......." NIST NCSTAR IA, page 47.

No matter how you try, you have provided nothing that shows the conclusion is wrong.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

"The probable collapse sequence that caused the global collapse of WTC7 was initiated by the buckling of Column 79, which was unsupported over 9 stories, after local-fire induced damage led to a cascade of floor failures......." NIST NCSTAR IA, page 47.

No matter how you try, you have provided nothing that shows the conclusion is wrong.

I think that without the shop drawings of the connections on both ends of the girder it is impossible to state that it would have been trapped. You didn't explain how the girder was installed if if physically could not be placed between the plates... My sense is that these connections are simplifications and do not represent the actual field conditions of the connections. Perhaps instead you can supply the shop drawings of both end conditions for the girder between col 79 and col 44.

You clearly seem to be assuming and confusing a structural analysis model with the real world frame conditions.
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

I think that without the shop drawings of the connections on both ends of the girder it is impossible to state that it would have been trapped. You didn't explain how the girder was installed if if physically could not be placed between the plates... My sense is that these connections are simplifications and do not represent the actual field conditions of the connections. Perhaps instead you can supply the shop drawings of both end conditions for the girder between col 79 and col 44.

You clearly seem to be assuming and confusing a structural analysis model with the real world frame conditions.

Are you seriously trying to say that you have never looked at the drawing for this connection or the corresponding C44 connection ?
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/1491_col_38-jpg.4149/

You clearly have no clue generally about this kind of connection, and less about this building specifically.
Are you sure you are a construction professional?

https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/9114jpg-jpg.4104/
 
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Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

"The probable collapse sequence that caused the global collapse of WTC7 was initiated by the buckling of Column 79, which was unsupported over 9 stories, after local-fire induced damage led to a cascade of floor failures......." NIST NCSTAR IA, page 47.

No matter how you try, you have provided nothing that shows the conclusion is wrong.
And what do NIST say began the process of the column being unsupported?
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Are you seriously trying to say that you have never looked at the drawing for this connection or the corresponding C44 connection ?
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/1491_col_38-jpg.4149/

You clearly have no clue generally about this kind of connection, and less about this building specifically.
Are you sure you are a construction professional?

https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/9114jpg-jpg.4104/

What do you expect from a retired residential architectural draftsman whose skill has been put to rest with the dodo bird...
 
Re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

What do you expect from a retired residential architectural draftsman whose skill has been put to rest with the dodo bird...

The problem is that Sander does not understand the most basic of drawings, or the most basic of connections. If he had attained these skills in the first place, this would not be the case.

He's not so much rusty, as seized.
 
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