• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132:1312]

re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Hey... HEY... That's mine....
Do you think you are the only one plagiarised?

Should we start a class action in tort for damages?

He could, in his defence, argue that you and I and maybe others have put all our bits of rhetorical brilliance and outstanding reasoning into the public domain.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Do you think you are the only one plagiarised?

Should we start a class action in tort for damages?

He could, in his defence, argue that you and I and maybe others have put all our bits of rhetorical brilliance and outstanding reasoning into the public domain.

All I am asking for is recognition.... And residuals.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

All I am asking for is recognition.... And residuals.
Sure.

But don't overlook accruals in capital value. Good posts which mature over time and stand the test of time like fine wines will increase in value.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Why "Looks Like a CD" and "2.25 Seconds of Free-Fall" is wrong

Support for conspiracy theorist claims of controlled demolition (CD) at 7 World Trade center typically fall under one of two broad categories:

1. It "looks" like a controlled demolition (therefore it must be)

And/or

2. The building collapsed at "free-fall speed"

The first claim - looks like a CD therefore it must be - is an obvious logical fallacy. Just because superficially, to a layperson (who is just repeating what s/he saw someone else say on Youtube) it looks sort of like a CD does not make it a CD. The only difference between CD and natural collapse (due to fire, structural failure, act of God, fatique, weather, etc) is how the collapse is initiated. Once initiation takes place gravity does the lions share of the work in either case, the initiator just sets things in motion. So of course a natural collapse is going to look similar to a CD. Therefore "looks like CD" = "must be CD" is false. Thankfully whatever it looks like, a natural collapse won't SOUND anything like a CD (and this probably explains why many conspiracy web sites mute the audio when they show 7's collapse).

'Free-fall speed' is another logical fallacy though slightly less obvious.

It stems from the mistaken belief among some conspiracy theorists that the specific measurement in question represents the building (it doesn't), and that free-fall = zero resistance (it doesn't) which they believe can only be achieved in a case of MHI (not true) and ignores the fact that accelerations in excess of G are inherent in the measurement (ie: so much for zero net resistance). More specifically, they claim 2.25 seconds of "free-fall" = zero resistance for 8 floors and this can only occur if 8 floors of 7 WTC were somehow all removed simultaneously which they imagine can only be explained by explosive controlled demolition (CD).

But this is wrong on several counts which we will get to in a moment. First, some ancient history,...

The free-fall = CD fallacy was popularized by retired high-school science teacher with too much time on his hands named David Chandler. He took measurements of the exterior of 7 World Trade Center from video of the collapse and determined that at one measured point for 2.25 seconds of the event (which lasted around 25 seconds in total) this measured point averaged free-fall. Then, responding to requests for public comment from the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) preliminary report on the collapse of 7 World Trade Center Chandler requested the NIST incorporate his data - which NIST having confirmed his data obligingly did.

To the TM this became a victory of mythical proportions, with grand tales of how Chandler forced NIST to admit his grand, earth-shattering, smoking gun discovery of free fall.

The truth isn't nearly so exciting.

Look at the initial draft report, the one Chandler responded to. The data (input and output for the model) did not change from the initial report to the final report. The NIST did not show enough emphasis on certain aspects of the post-initiation collapse for Chandler. All Chandler did was have NIST break down what they already had and were treating as one event into individual segments of the total collapse because Chandler and other "Truthers" wanted to focus on one aspect and view that in isolation. NIST obliged and broke it down (in the final report) into 3 segments and elaborated on the middle (free-fall) in more detail. Chandler's intervention merely caused NIST to explain what it already had more thoroughly (ie: to put it more in to layman's terms) and that's a good thing. But the data has always been there (just not in "truther" speak).

So what it boils down to is:
1. The fundamental data in the NIST report did not change.
2. The conclusions of the NIST final report did not change.
3. Chandler did not "force" NIST to do anything. They responded to public comment - the whole purpose after all of the preliminary draft report.
4. Chandler did not "discover" anything new.

Chandler's belief was that "free-fall" would prove CD. But it doesn't and it didn't. In fact, it didn't change a thing. Why?

1. The measurement was taken from a single point on the exterior façade. A measurement taken from a different point might well yield very different results (and I suspect Chandler knows this :naughty )

2. The measurement was an AVERAGE taken over 2.25 seconds. More detailed analysis has shown that during that period the façade was accelerating from less than G, to G and then briefly over G before slowing down to less than G again. It was not '2.25 seconds at G'. Therefore we are not talking about a simplistic measurement of 8 floors of free-fall or zero resistance.

3. Because the measurement is only valid for that single point on the exterior façade it has nothing to do with the interior of the building which collapsed first, leaving the un-braced exterior façade to fall last. What you see falling in the Youtube video's and what NIST measured was actually a hollow shell by that point. Or in simple terms it was not the building but a hollow shell that used to contain a building. So why should we care about how fast one single point on the exterior curtain wall - the last part of the building to go - fell for a sort period of the total collapse event?

We shouldn't. It tells us nothing about why the building collapsed.

4. Free-fall does not = zero resistance, it = zero NET resistance.

There is always going to be some resistance. This was not a 1D event involving only gravity but a 3D event involving thousands, millions of components bending, twisting, shearing, crashing and rubbing in to each other. The obvious implication of this is that even in order to achieve G let alone pass it other forces besides gravity must be in play. The collapsing building interior for example may have exhibited a lever action on the parts of the curtain wall it was still attached to, pulling it down at rate over G. Certainly a much more plausible explanation than setting charges in a building that was already falling.

Adding the reference to "free-fall" in the NIST final report did nothing more than add a sentence to the report. It did not have any impact on the data. Nothing changed. The reason nothing changed is that a brief moment of free-fall (or over) is inherent in the data. Since this has nothing to do with why the building collapsed but rather how part of it fell post collapse initiation I honestly don't know why Truthers obsess over it. Or short version, the speed at which something falls tells us nothing about WHY it fell. The free-fall measurement only applies to a single point on the building exterior which was separated from and collapsed well after the building interior. Other specific points on the exterior face may have collapsed at different rates, in fact it is a virtual certainty they did (I would even speculate Chandler measured multiple points until he got the "free-fall" he was looking for). There were no 8 floors to demo - they were already gone. And certainly there would be no point in doing a demo after a building is already falling, nor the technical means to do so!

Bob should be along shortly to quote-mine this and NIST pick over details while completely missing the larger picture of why free fall of the curtain wall is not important to determining the cause of the collapse.

I'm not interested.

:applaud :applaud

That is one memorable post Mark.

I won't detract from it by trying to add anything.

I have listed it in my brief index of key posts on 9/11.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Do you think you are the only one plagiarised?

Should we start a class action in tort for damages?

He could, in his defence, argue that you and I and maybe others have put all our bits of rhetorical brilliance and outstanding reasoning into the public domain.

I borrow heavily from many sources - but only quality sources :cheers:

I'll have to pay the two of you out of my shill checks :slapme: (just don't tell the other guys in the band).
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

This is actually a repeat of an older post, just moved here for safe keeping.

Richard Gage, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and the issue of Professional Honesty.

I know many people who think Richard Gage is a liar - that he knowingly peddles nonsense. They believe this because Gage has been repeatedly corrected - often in person - on many of his false claims yet he does not correct them as one would expect of an honest professional. I however am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I suspect he holds genuine delusions about 9/11 which cause him to believe lies. Because he believes the lies he is not himself a liar, merely deluded.

But that's not really the point,...

Richard Gage is professionally dishonest.

Gage wears his credentials as a former professional architect and his membership in the AIA (itself hardly a big deal) on his sleeve to present a veneer of professional authority he and his minions do not possess. Gage is certainly aware the nonsense he spreads about Controlled Demolition at the World Trade Center is shared only by a pathetically tiny minority within his profession. But not just that, Gage is aware that the body of professional opinion is in fact against him. Professional honesty requires that anyone putting forward a minority view must not represent it as the accepted view of that profession. He should also at least explain that there is a majority position which differs from his. Those are the basic requirements of professional honesty. After that, more power to him to go on and explain why his minority view is the supportable/correct position.

Gage however, gives his audience the illusion his opinions are also widely held among professionals and his efforts have broad support among professionals when in fact Gage and his cronies are so far in the minority opinion within their respective professions they are not even a blip on the radar. The body of professional opinion is against him. The trade organizations that are the professional face of the experts he claims to be organizing have disowned him. Every profession has its lunatic fringe and Gage and friends are it. I don't care what they say their credentials are. It doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is that they are fundamentally wrong on the technical details of 9/11 and this is why they do not now and never have had any credibility, broad public appeal or professional support.

We can in fact be pretty darn certain that 9/11 was the result of 19 terrorists d-bags flying planes into three buildings and a field in Pennsylvania because that is the only story that matches the available evidence. To date no one has come up with a comprehensive competing theory that even makes logical sense - and it has been almost 13 years! AE911T with all its money and all its experts has not done a damn thing to significantly move that needle. 9/11 Truth has no impact anywhere except on the internet - even with all of Gage's awareness raising.

This begs the question: If Richard Gage and 2,000 "experts" are all that and a box of Cracker Jacks, why have they in 8 years utterly failed to come up with a comprehensive theory as to what they believe really happened? Why do they not even try? All they have is a meaningless petition which adds a pathetic handful of names per month from the millions eligible.

You know who else collects names of scientists who support them? Creationists. So AE9/11T has that in common with them. Congratulations.

On a superficial I understand why people find Richard Gage credible. Gage has professional credentials that he brags about and people tend to trust authority. He is charming and seems sincere and probably even is sincere. He is a more than competent and charismatic public speaker and his arguments superficially seem detailed and thorough. Human nature is that if people decide a source is credible, they will believe whatever that person says.

The default value of human behavior is to believe what we are told, the more so if it comes from an authority figure. The willingness to believe makes us more susceptible to be fooled.

Unfortunately, the fact is Richard Gage, AIA is fundamentally wrong on nearly every major issue re: 9/11. And even though Gage will (privately) admit he lacks the technical experience or expertise to speak on the subjects that he does, he does it anyway. And when he is told of the errors in his facts, logic and reasoning he ignores it. Remember, Gage is a man who claims professional authority yet thinks cardboard boxes are a realistic representation of skyscrapers!

There is no expertise at AE911T. Nearly all of the professionals who have signed the petition (and keep in mind, this is ALL they have done) work or worked in professions which provide them no relevant expertise or experience re: large building collapses. They don't speak out about 9/11 related issues. None are involved in any sort of promotion of their 9/11 ideas, other than allowing Dick to place their names on his list. They certainly have proven incapable of convincing their peers or there would be hundreds of thousands of signatures on that petition by now. None of them does any original research. What is the point of having all of these experts and raising all of this money since not a one of them does any original research? Why do they not apply their "expertise" to any matter re: 9/11 but merely rubber-stamp the work of non-experts like the retired high school teacher who does their physics and building collapse analysis and the carpenter who does their FEA (using what appears to be MS Paint)?

And we are supposed to take this guy seriously?

AE911T should be doing experiments on the destructiveness of Super High Intensity Therm_te. After all, they have been responsible for all the hype surrounding its use as a demolition material for large steel structures. Why does AE911T not use just a small portion of the millions they raise to test the effect of S_H_I_T on steel beams? Determine how loud it is when ignited and compare it to a conventional explosive like TNT or Semtex. Considering all the professionals that are on board with AE911T, I am really more than a bit surprised they haven't done this sort of basic testing already - after 8 years. It not only looks sloppy, but also shows a confirmation bias (in that they must be afraid of getting negative results). They have had years to get their facts straight through these simple precautions, and have chosen to do no experiments at all. Yet they claim to want to change public policy, to force a new investigation into their claims. If you are not disappointed, you should be.

All they have is paultry 2,200 signatures on a petition - after EIGHT YEARS!?!?!? But they keep begging for money. But begging for money to do what? So Richard Gage can travel the world for free and hold more fund-raisers? So besides raising money for the purpose of raising money what exactly is the point of this organization?

AE911T is built on dishonesty and delusion. The organization started with the conclusion already in hand. Everything they have done since then has been carefully crafted to avoid upsetting that conclusion by doing real, honest research.

If AE911T is the best the Truthers have, then the work of us skeptics is done.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Nicely summarised Mark. Especially the explanation of the professional dishonesty aspects.

You are right that "...the work of us skeptics is done."

This forum no better but also no worse than others which have been at the centre of 9/11 CT debate. Same scene everywhere - few if any genuine truthers still active. (I only see one currently active and that person is a special case of self delusion.) A lot of trolling noise and a determination by those taking truther positions to avoid facing real discussion.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Why "Looks Like a CD" and "2.25 Seconds of Free-Fall" is wrong

Support for conspiracy theorist claims of controlled demolition (CD) at 7 World Trade center typically fall under one of two broad categories:

1. It "looks" like a controlled demolition (therefore it must be)

Not quite... That it looked like a demolition, raises the questions that make considering that option in the investigation. (Not something NIST was trying to do, when they, you know, "investigated")



And/or

2. The building collapsed at "free-fall speed"
... collapse won't SOUND anything like a CD (and this probably explains why many conspiracy web sites mute the audio when they show 7's collapse).

'Free-fall speed' is another logical fallacy though slightly less obvious.

Strawman.

Beyond that though, this is a significant claim, I would like you to demonstrate how collapses of natural causes appear like controlled demolition.

(This will serve to prove you wrong, so I expect you to dodge)


It stems from the mistaken belief among some conspiracy theorists that the specific measurement in question represents the building (it doesn't), and that free-fall = zero resistance (it doesn't) which they believe can only be achieved in a case of MHI (not true) and ignores the fact that accelerations in excess of G are inherent in the measurement (ie: so much for zero net resistance). More specifically, they claim 2.25 seconds of "free-fall" = zero resistance for 8 floors and this can only occur if 8 floors of 7 WTC were somehow all removed simultaneously which they imagine can only be explained by explosive controlled demolition (CD).

Pseudo-psycho babble ignored.

That corner was attached at 2 walls... Exterior walls, and you can tell by watching all the angles that even if it was just the shell, there's no explanation for it free falling for ANY period, never mind 8 floors worth.

If there's another explanation, it should be modelled in such a way that the same (or at least similar) results should be achievable. Otherwise the model is useless.


But this is wrong on several counts which we will get to in a moment. First, some ancient history,...

The free-fall = CD fallacy was popularized by retired high-school science teacher with too much time on his hands named David Chandler. He took measurements of the exterior of 7 World Trade Center from video of the collapse and determined that at one measured point for 2.25 seconds of the event (which lasted around 25 seconds in total) this measured point averaged free-fall. Then, responding to requests for public comment from the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) preliminary report on the collapse of 7 World Trade Center Chandler requested the NIST incorporate his data - which NIST having confirmed his data obligingly did.

This is so flagrantly false, where to start...

Nist had claimed 40% of freefall on the total measurement by adding 5 seconds to the count on the same video... A rate they were originally stating was the overall average... Chandler showed them wrong, and so they were forced to concede the deception, but jus threw it in like a person throws a fart in church and hopes nobody notices.

To the TM this became a victory of mythical proportions, with grand tales of how Chandler forced NIST to admit his grand, earth-shattering, smoking gun discovery of free fall.

The truth isn't nearly so exciting.

Look at the initial draft report, the one Chandler responded to. The data (input and output for the model) did not change from the initial report to the final report. The NIST did not show enough emphasis on certain aspects of the post-initiation collapse for Chandler. All Chandler did was have NIST break down what they already had and were treating as one event into individual segments of the total collapse because Chandler and other "Truthers" wanted to focus on one aspect and view that in isolation. NIST obliged and broke it down (in the final report) into 3 segments and elaborated on the middle (free-fall) in more detail. Chandler's intervention merely caused NIST to explain what it already had more thoroughly (ie: to put it more in to layman's terms) and that's a good thing. But the data has always been there (just not in "truther" speak).

This is simply a fabrication of yours with no basis in reality.


So what it boils down to is:
1. The fun...
1. The measurement was taken from a single point on the exterior façade. A measurement taken from a different point might well yield very different results (and I suspect Chandler knows this :naughty )

Wrong, you can pick any suitable point and find the consistent results, once the building kinks, it drops 8 floors... It's not one point in isolation, that point represents at least 2 of the exterior walls.

2. The measurement was an AVERAGE taken over 2.25 seconds. More detailed analysis has shown that during that period the façade was accelerating from less than G, to G and then briefly over G before slowing down to less than G again. It was not '2.25 seconds at G'. Therefore we are not talking about a simplistic measurement of 8 floors of free-fall or zero resistance.

There is so much false in this it's impossible to respond.

3. Because the measurement is only valid for that single point on the exterior façade it has nothing to do with the interior of the building which collapsed first, leaving the un-braced exterior façade to fall last. What you see falling in the Youtube video's and what NIST measured was actually a hollow shell by that point. Or in simple terms it was not the building but a hollow shell that used to contain a building. So why should we care about how fast one single point on the exterior curtain wall - the last part of the building to go - fell for a sort period of the total collapse event?

We shouldn't. It tells us nothing about why the building collapsed.

Oh... You have a bit of a here... Let's just say that there was only a hollow shell, there were two outside walls falling straight down, until it slowed down.

4. Free-fall does not = zero resistance, it = zero NET resistance.

There is always going to be some resistance. This was not a 1D event involving only gravity but a 3D event involving thousands, millions of components bending, twisting, shearing, crashing and rubbing in to each other. The obvious implication of this is that even in order to achieve G let alone pass it other forces besides gravity must be in play. The collapsing building interior for example may have exhibited a lever action on the parts of the curtain wall it was still attached to, pulling it down at rate over G. Certainly a much more plausible explanation than setting charges in a building that was already falling.



Bob should be along shortly to quote-mine this and NIST pick over details while completely missing the larger picture of why free fall of the curtain wall is not important to determining the cause of the collapse.

I'm not interested.

The rest of this falls in the no s@@@ category, to the results of GIGO. Pretty much all irrelevant to reality.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Not quite... That it looked like a demolition, raises the questions that make considering that option in the investigation. (Not something NIST was trying to do, when they, you know, "investigated")

Strawman.

Beyond that though, this is a significant claim, I would like you to demonstrate how collapses of natural causes appear like controlled demolition.

(This will serve to prove you wrong, so I expect you to dodge)

Pseudo-psycho babble ignored.

That corner was attached at 2 walls... Exterior walls, and you can tell by watching all the angles that even if it was just the shell, there's no explanation for it free falling for ANY period, never mind 8 floors worth.

If there's another explanation, it should be modelled in such a way that the same (or at least similar) results should be achievable. Otherwise the model is useless.

This is so flagrantly false, where to start...

Nist had claimed 40% of freefall on the total measurement by adding 5 seconds to the count on the same video... A rate they were originally stating was the overall average... Chandler showed them wrong, and so they were forced to concede the deception, but jus threw it in like a person throws a fart in church and hopes nobody notices.

This is simply a fabrication of yours with no basis in reality.

Wrong, you can pick any suitable point and find the consistent results, once the building kinks, it drops 8 floors... It's not one point in isolation, that point represents at least 2 of the exterior walls.

There is so much false in this it's impossible to respond.

Oh... You have a bit of a here... Let's just say that there was only a hollow shell, there were two outside walls falling straight down, until it slowed down.

The rest of this falls in the no s@@@ category, to the results of GIGO. Pretty much all irrelevant to reality.

Ummmm, :no:
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Another re-post, compiled from an earlier discussion.

There is no prima facie case for CD.

There isn't a single CD claim that meets the requirements for prima facie or even comes close.

No plausible hypothesis for CD explaining the who/what/when/where/why/how has ever been presented.
There is no physical evidence supporting any form of CD, only claims of unexplained anomalies vaguely tied to CD by innuendo.
There is no CD scenario that has ever been presented AFAIK that is compatible with terrorist attack (MIHOP is required for CD claims).

IMHO, CD claims do not originate from the process of reasoning, of scientific investigation. CD claims come from the convergence of two different processes.
1). Personal incredulity: 'It looks like a CD, therefore it must me'. 'Free-fall can only happen in CD', or the classic 'never before in history,...' That the belief could be wrong is not questioned. Reality is instead denied.
AND
2). Ideology: 'The government/Jews/NWO/Illuminati/Reptilians/etc,... are evil, therefore they must have done it.'

These two processes are usually mixed to varying degrees. Regardless, the process involved includes arriving at the conclusion based on pre-existing bias, then working to confirm that conclusion through careful selection of the evidence, choosing only that which fits or at least seems to fit, ignoring what doesn't or what contradicts the belief and inventing whatever is needed to fill in the gaps. In other words, it is working the problem backwards. I have never encountered a CD claim that was not framed in this fashion. Thus Truther claims are built on a foundation of partial truth (so they can pass superficial scrutiny of the "that's not true" variety) and they (often implied rather than stated) un-truth, or lie-by-inneundo and/or a false global generalization.

The supporting evidence is usually framed in the form of one or a few individual anomalies the proponent of CD can not explain, with tacked-on reversed burden-of-proof (eg; 'I say free-fall = CD, you prove me wrong'). The problem is not worked in a scientific fashion that includes an examination of all of the available evidence, sorting out which bits are relevant and which are not, and putting the relevant bits together in order to reach an understanding - a testable hypothesis - that explains the event.

In the case of 7 World Trade Center one has the additional factor that any CD would have been absolutely pointless and of no use to the plot while adding considerable unnecessary risk - a factor ignored by CD proponents no matter how often I bring it up.

Since even before it fell, structural failure due to fire has been the ONLY plausible hypothesis for the collapse of 7 World Trade Center. The proximate cause of the collapse has NEVER been a mystery. The south face of 7 was badly damaged by the collapse of 1 World Trade Center. fires were started simultaneously on multiple floors. There was insufficient water pressure to suppress or fight these fires and few firemen with little equipment left to fight them. The building was seen to creak and moan, lean to one side and develop a 3-story tall bulge hours before its collapse. For those reasons firefighters had to abandon efforts to save the building and create a safety zone around it - that it would inevitably collapse was obvious. Not only was 7 based undoubtedly a fire-induced collapse, but I will go even further and state it was also incidental to the events of that day - the mechanisms really only of interest for improving building safety. Nothing learned at building 7 gets us any closer to proving the guilt of the plotters and executors of the 9/11 attacks anymore than would an investigation into the destruction of St Nicholas Church.

No one has ever made a serious attempt at offering any alternative to fire induced collapse in building 7. The 9/11 Truth movement, looking to remain relevant after utterly failing to convince with its fanciful tails of energy beams, mini-nukes and/or Flying Spaghetti Monsters at the Twin Towers, missiles at the Pentagon and shoot-downs at Shanksville began to focus instead on building 7, taking advantage of building 7's incidental (low priority) status to inject their own narrative into the "discussion". There is nothing conspiracy loves more than a vacuum.

That no prima facie case for any sort of MHI (Malicious Human Intervention) beyond terror attack by hijacked commercial aircraft has ever been presented is fact. That has nothing to do with the 9/11 Commission or NIST. It does have everything to do with the utter failure of the 9/11 Truth Movement to make a plausible case for any of their many and often contradictory claims. Possibly it may also have something to do with the fact there was clearly no MHI beyond Kamikaze terrorist/hijackers.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Another compiled re-post:

Column 79 Failure

We know Column 79 collapsed and the proof is in the visual record of how the EPH failed. The kink in the EPH roof-line and the exterior window breakage along the column line are all consistent with a failure of Col. 79. The NIST modeling showed the same results when 79 was removed. So prima facie, Col. 79 buckled and failed leading to a progression of other failures throughout the interior structure and finally a collapse of the exterior curtain wall (the more obvious bit that people confuse with a symmetrical collapse on all the Youtube videos). NIST postulated girder walk-off on the 13th floor as the initiating cause of that failure. The theory is plausible - it could have happened like that - I just happen to think they probably got that wrong. I think there was a bunch of other stuff going on in there of which that girder was just a part. I find it unlikely that the buckling of Col. 79 could be pinned to just one, single event, one girder on one floor. I suspect there was floor sagging and even collapse events on multiple floors that all contributed. But then NIST accounts for some of this as well. The key point is there is no way to know. The evidence is limited and its all a bit chicken-and-egg anyway with what came first and no one will ever know with any more certainty than we have today. Either way, 79 failed, the EPH folded, more columns failed and the EPH fell through the building below, the collapse event progressed westward through the load transfer region and more interior columns collapsed, the now un-supported curtain wall kinked then its columns failed and down it went.

None of this BTW excludes MHI as an initiating event - it just makes that a bit more complicated. And there is still the fundamental lack of evidence, means or motive for MHI.

My conclusion based on the evidence is that when the North Tower collapsed it showered 7 WTC with thousands of tons of flaming debris, venting the south side of the structure and starting fires on multiple floors simultaneously. Lack of water pressure caused by the Twin Towers collapses damaging the mains meant there was no effective fire suppression within the building and combined with the loss of personnel and equipment no effective firefighting efforts from outside. All efforts were abandoned when it was observed 7 WTC was creaking, moaning, had started to lean and had developed a 3-story bulge in one side. City engineers and the FDNY confirmed the structure was likely to collapse from the damage it had suffered and cleared a safety zone around it. Then as expected it collapsed.

The loss of 7 World Trade was incidental, of no more consequence to the attack itself than the loss of Fiterman Hall or St Nicholas Church. It is of interest primary as regards building safety standards.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Not quite... That it looked like a demolition, raises the questions that make considering that option in the investigation. (Not something NIST was trying to do, when they, you know, "investigated")

First show us EVIDENCE of explosives....

No EVIDENCE?

No reason to waste time investigating things that make no sense.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Another compiled re-post:

Column 79 Failure

We know Column 79 collapsed and the proof is in the visual record of how the EPH failed. The kink in the EPH roof-line and the exterior window breakage along the column line are all consistent with a failure of Col. 79. The NIST modeling showed the same results when 79 was removed. So prima facie, Col. 79 buckled and failed leading to a progression of other failures throughout the interior structure and finally a collapse of the exterior curtain wall (the more obvious bit that people confuse with a symmetrical collapse on all the Youtube videos). NIST postulated girder walk-off on the 13th floor as the initiating cause of that failure. The theory is plausible - it could have happened like that - I just happen to think they probably got that wrong. I think there was a bunch of other stuff going on in there of which that girder was just a part. I find it unlikely that the buckling of Col. 79 could be pinned to just one, single event, one girder on one floor. I suspect there was floor sagging and even collapse events on multiple floors that all contributed. But then NIST accounts for some of this as well. The key point is there is no way to know. The evidence is limited and its all a bit chicken-and-egg anyway with what came first and no one will ever know with any more certainty than we have today. Either way, 79 failed, the EPH folded, more columns failed and the EPH fell through the building below, the collapse event progressed westward through the load transfer region and more interior columns collapsed, the now un-supported curtain wall kinked then its columns failed and down it went.

None of this BTW excludes MHI as an initiating event - it just makes that a bit more complicated. And there is still the fundamental lack of evidence, means or motive for MHI.

My conclusion based on the evidence is that when the North Tower collapsed it showered 7 WTC with thousands of tons of flaming debris, venting the south side of the structure and starting fires on multiple floors simultaneously. Lack of water pressure caused by the Twin Towers collapses damaging the mains meant there was no effective fire suppression within the building and combined with the loss of personnel and equipment no effective firefighting efforts from outside. All efforts were abandoned when it was observed 7 WTC was creaking, moaning, had started to lean and had developed a 3-story bulge in one side. City engineers and the FDNY confirmed the structure was likely to collapse from the damage it had suffered and cleared a safety zone around it. Then as expected it collapsed.

The loss of 7 World Trade was incidental, of no more consequence to the attack itself than the loss of Fiterman Hall or St Nicholas Church. It is of interest primary as regards building safety standards.

Progressive failures != instant failures.

The models NIST made prove that case.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Progressive failures != instant failures.

The models NIST made prove that case.


WTC was not an "instant failure". Unless your CT version of "instant" means stretching out over time.

And, why would NIST look at explosives since:

1. No EVIDENCE of explosives found in prior investigations
2. No BLAST consistent with explosives
3. No OVERPRESSURE consistent with explosives
4. No SEISMIC record consistent with explosives.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Progressive failures != instant failures.

The models NIST made prove that case.

NIST's model(s) had no way of incorporating the contradictory free fall NIST admitted took place, neither did NIST's computer simulation cartoons. Anyone with half a brain can understand that progressive collapse and global free fall are mutually exclusive, except of course those who believe that free fall and massive or any resistance are fully compatible.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Another re-post compilation, this time re: the ever-popular chestnut 'Fell in its own Footprint'.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...t-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-73.html#post1063343855

http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...t-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-75.html#post1063344737

http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...t-collapse-wtc7-9-11-a-78.html#post1063347459

Buildings falling in their own footprints (or "virtually" in their own footprints as Tony Szamboti claims) doesn't have anything to do with the official narrative. It just didn't happen and the evidence for that is both abundant and obvious. How could the collapse of 3 buildings destroy 7 others, cause severe damage to another 25 and moderate to light damage to around 100 more if they landed nice and neatly in their own footprint?
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

NIST's model(s) had no way of incorporating the contradictory free fall NIST admitted took place, neither did NIST's computer simulation cartoons. Anyone with half a brain can understand that progressive collapse and global free fall are mutually exclusive, except of course those who believe that free fall and massive or any resistance are fully compatible.

Exactly, because NIST model has the building empty to a shell, and naturally, a shell of a building with one wall broken would be deforming, bending and twisting it's way to the ground. Exactly what the model showed, and exactly the opposite of what happened in reality.

Then the debunkers use tricks like pretending the area of measured free fall was independent from the rest of the structure, even though looking from all angles shows that drop.

Or they use confused terms, like fell in the footprint, which will have a different meaning for the general public as it does for demolitions experts as a way of showing people wrong, and say because it doesn't follow precisely the way an expert would intend the term, that it also invalidates what a layperson could see.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

Another compilation re-post, this time re: How 7 World Trade Could be Rigged for Controlled Demolition, Part 1.

The commonly accepted hypothesis for the collapse of 7 World Trade Center is that it happened in 3 stages over a period of about 25 seconds as a result of prolonged exposure to un-fought fires combined with the buildings unique (one could even say flawed) structural design. In the hours leading up to the collapse of 7 World Trade Center firefighters reported the building was fully involved in fire, was creaking, moaning and leaning, and had developed a bulge about 3 stories tall in one side - all signs of imminent collapse. After burning for 7 hours with little to no significant fire suppression Column 79 began to buckle as evidenced by the kink in the roof of the East Mechanical Penthouse (EPH), then Column 79 failed as evidenced by the collapse of the EPH into the structure and window breakage along the column line.

With Column 79 gone a series of failures in the load transfer region resulted in a progressive collapse of the rest of the interior structure from east to west as evidenced by the progression of window breakage, the collapse of the WPH and the kink in the roof line at roughly the mid-point of the building.

The final stage was the collapse of the now un-supported exterior curtain wall (the bit we see in all the videos on Youtube). During this final stage retired high school teacher David Chandler took a measurement from a single point on the roofline and determined that for a period of 2.25 seconds this point averaged free-fall acceleration. Chandler presented his calculations to the NIST who concurred and included it in their final report on the collapse of 7 WTC.

The CD Alternative

Conspiracy theorists reject most or all of the above. For conspiracy theorists, the seeming 'symmetric' neatness of the visible 3rd stage of collapse superficially reminds them of a pre-planned and controlled building demolition using explosives. Fuel was added to this fire with the discovery of a brief period of 'free-fall' during the collapse, which the non-structural engineering literate presume can only happen with CD. Now CD of course has to mean the building was intentionally demolished and the preparations for this could only have been done prior to 9/11 which means for them 7 WTC is the smoking gun of an inside-job rather than incidental collateral damage of little importance outside the structural engineering community.

The problem for conspiracy theorists is they have never been able to explain how it was done or how it could have been done (let alone why anyone would bother - but that is for a different post). Few in fact even try,... but they just know it was a CD and anyone who says otherwise is a paid government shill or a blind sheeple.

:thinking :think: ... :bomb:

One rare exception is Tony Szamboti, who believes the 2.25 seconds of free-fall measured by David Chandler represents the entire building, not just a single point on the corner of the roof of the curtain wall (and that it also represents 2.25 seconds AT free-fall - it doesn't). T Sz also believes that free-fall must = CD so to make CD fit this measurement he has had to invent a scenario where the 24 core columns on 8 floors had to be removed for CD to match the observed 2.25 seconds of free-fall so therefore they were all rigged to blow simultaneously, resulting in a symmetrical collapse of the entire building together. Without that he can't explain the 2.25 seconds of G.

Or in other words, his hypothesis relies on at least two false starting premises - free-fall and symmetry = CD.

But more importantly the Szamboti hypothesis only seeks to explain the alleged symmetry and brief period of average free-fall. It ignores everything that happened up until the moment the curtain wall began to move. It also does not attempt to answer why on earth would anyone rig 24 columns to blow over 8 floors when one or two floors max would be sufficient to bring down the building? Isn't that a bit overkill? After all, Dr. Evil and his minions presumably had the goal of simply bringing down the building by the most expedient means possible (why is a different matter), not bringing it down in a way that gives this overly convoluted story a chance to make sense. Therefore rigging some but perhaps not even all of the core columns over maybe one or two floors as close to ground level as possible should be far more than sufficient. After all, as NIST demonstrated later even removing one column would do the job if you chose the right one, but I'm getting ahead of myself,...

Tony - after a very long delay and much evasion replied to this that 8 floors had to be blown to ensure the building completely collapsed, thus easing the later cleanup process at the site. As we all know ease of post-collapse cleanup would have been a high priority concern to evil people who were planning to blow up much of lower Manhattan and kill thousands of people to start wars for oil, institute the Patriot Act, etc,etc, etc,.. Perfectly reasonable. :confused:

Another problem is that like all CD scenarios that is completely incompatible with a 3-stage progressive collapse. So in order to make symmetrical CD at free-fall work the collapse of the EPH is treated as a separate, almost unrelated event and it is claimed the interior columns and exterior curtain wall fell together, which is contrary to the design of the building and the observations of the roof and window breakage.

CD - How Was it Done?

But there is an even bigger problem - how could this Herculean task have been accomplished in total secrecy, especially as some claim the media were let in on the plot?

What we need is a to address the practical problems of MHI/CD, detailing the amount and type of work that would for example be required for say 7 World Trade Center which would be the easiest of the 3. Start with Tony's 24 columns over 8 floors claim since, however incomplete, it is the closest thing we currently have here to a collapse initiation hypothesis that does not involve fire as the proximate cause AND Szamboti has not made any attempt so far as I am aware to solve the practical logistical problems.

With the Szamboti hypothesis as our baseline scenario we need to describe the preparation work required to accomplish something like that. Amount of time, types and quantities of devices required, how much effort to install, how many people involved, how they would be placed and wired without disrupting business as usual AND without anyone noticing their offices being torn to bits to make it all happen. That's the really tricky bit - how does one pull this off without getting caught. Then of course, how loud and obvious the whole thing would be when set off. And lets not forget, how did the charges and associated wiring survive 7 hours of fire?

OR

Since the final NIST model rather surprisingly revealed the crucial role played by the removal of Column 79 to the buildings survival (that its removal would initiate global collapse) we could discuss what is involved with just removing a chunk of that column to initiate a progressive global collapse. But it does mean we have to accept progressive collapse, which Truthers by and large do not - which leaves us with the Szamboti option as the only thing on the table - unless someone has a better idea. While this scenario is of course presumably much easier/less risky to set up it requires hindsight knowledge, which seems unlikely. Therefore a genuine exploration of CD would have to start without hindsight, or in other words again with Tony's scenario which represents a conventional, no-hindsight approach.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

How 7 World Trade Center Could be Rigged for Demolition, Part 2

Plausibility of CD

Part of coming up with a plausible scenario is to make it plausible. :doh When one thinks about the logistics involved in the gross overkill of simultaneously blowing 24 columns over 8 floors in a busy office tower without any of it being discovered, particularly when no believable reason has been put forward to do it the whole thing becomes rather silly.

For the sake of argument though pretend you are Dr. Evil, charged with bringing this building down (for whatever reason this is deemed necessary for the success of the plot). What way are you going to do it? The most expeditious way with the least risk of discovery that will accomplish the mission OR in the manner that produces the most spectacular free-fall and symmetry while introducing the greatest possible unnecessary risk and possibility of discovery and failure to the plot?

It seems highly unlikely to me that taking out 24 columns along a single story, particularly low in the structure would fail to bring the building down. Tony has claimed but not demonstrated this is so. Other structures have managed with less. I could even grant him perhaps two floors but I certainly don't see why EIGHT (8) floors would be required. I am aware of no other structure subjected to CD which required such enormous overkill. And after all, NIST's final model demonstrated that the removal of a single critical column would be sufficient to ensure the destruction of the entire building. And yes I know what Truthers are going to say, the NIST report was a fraud yada, yada, yada,... But so far as I am aware concerns about the NIST report have only dealt with their claims for collapse initiation, NOT the structures vulnerability to global collapse due to the removal (by whatever means) of this critical column.

The only rationale given to explain such otherwise unnecessary gross overkill - to ease post-collapse cleanup efforts - is quite frankly silly. Why would Dr. Evil be so concerned about dismantling a partially damaged building that he would be willing to risk the entire plot with a seriously overkill demo plan that was certain to be discovered? Why is post-collapse cleanup even Dr. Evil's problem? Why on earth would Dr. Evil even care if his goal was to cause maximum chaos, death and destruction? The Duetsche Bank building was dismantled. That didn't seem to be the end of anyone's world. Fiterman Hall too. And WTC 3, 4, 5 and 6 as well. What's one more? Besides, maybe Dr. Evil owns a demolition company that would be up for the lucrative 7 removal contract.

Put yourself in Dr. Evil's shoes, sitting in your spinning leather recliner at your secret volcano lair. You have been tasked with destroying an unknown and unimportant office tower for reasons unknown and getting away with it without leaving so much as a trace. This being just a tiny part of a much broader operation that will see the decimation of a good chunk of lower Manhattan including no doubt leaving several partially collapsed and unstable buildings behind, the partial destruction of America's military headquarters and the deaths of potentially tens of thousands of people. Presumably you will want to do this in the most expedient and least risky manner possible (truck bomb perhaps).

So why do you really care how neat the pile of rubble is when you are done?

This dismantling business is just an exceedingly poor rationale, and it opens up too many other questions. For example:

If Dr. Evil was so concerned the building come down in a relatively neat and clean fashion why let it burn for 7 hours first? Where is the logic in that? Explosives and fire don't mix. Things can only go wrong in that scenario - reduce the chance of success and increase the risk of being caught.

If someone wired 7 for demo (presumably along with the Twins) the obvious time to blow it is when the North Tower came down when it would be obscured in the dust of the North Tower collapse, not 7 hours later in plain view of the world. Wouldn't that be a better, far less risky cover story? No incriminating video. No firefighters snooping around the building for hours where they could potentially uncover the plot. No risk the explosives would cook off prematurely from the fires or their leads would be damaged or destroyed, thus compromising the entire operation and potentially leaving the building standing and full of incriminating evidence.

Be that as it may, CD's go wrong which sometimes leaves the contractor with the task of removing a partially demo'd and unstable building. Feces happens as they say. But it can be done. It is hardly a deal killer and it seems to me highly unlikely that anyone who has no compunction about attacking buildings in 2 cities, destroying 10 of them and damaging scores more while killing 3,000 people is really going to give a s__t how messy the cleanup is.

So it seems to me either the CD scenario is massively faulty or the plotters chose the most preposterous, over-the-top and unnecessarily risky plan possible in order to destroy an unimportant building that few people had ever heard of. The proof of that is in a favorite AE911T tagline; "Did you know a 3rd tower fell on 9/11?" No, most people don't know because 7 World Trade Center wasn't important. Blowing it up does nothing for the plot but vastly increase the risk of the plot being discovered.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

How 7 World Trade Center Could be Rigged for Demolition, Part 2

Plausibility of CD

Part of coming up with a plausible scenario is to make it plausible. :doh When one thinks about the logistics involved in the gross overkill of simultaneously blowing 24 columns over 8 floors in a busy office tower without any of it being discovered, particularly when no believable reason has been put forward to do it the whole thing becomes rather silly.

For the sake of argument though pretend you are Dr. Evil, charged with bringing this building down (for whatever reason this is deemed necessary for the success of the plot). What way are you going to do it? The most expeditious way with the least risk of discovery that will accomplish the mission OR in the manner that produces the most spectacular free-fall and symmetry while introducing the greatest possible unnecessary risk and possibility of discovery and failure to the plot?

It seems highly unlikely to me that taking out 24 columns along a single story, particularly low in the structure would fail to bring the building down. Tony has claimed but not demonstrated this is so. Other structures have managed with less. I could even grant him perhaps two floors but I certainly don't see why EIGHT (8) floors would be required. I am aware of no other structure subjected to CD which required such enormous overkill. And after all, NIST's final model demonstrated that the removal of a single critical column would be sufficient to ensure the destruction of the entire building. And yes I know what Truthers are going to say, the NIST report was a fraud yada, yada, yada,... But so far as I am aware concerns about the NIST report have only dealt with their claims for collapse initiation, NOT the structures vulnerability to global collapse due to the removal (by whatever means) of this critical column.

The only rationale given to explain such otherwise unnecessary gross overkill - to ease post-collapse cleanup efforts - is quite frankly silly. Why would Dr. Evil be so concerned about dismantling a partially damaged building that he would be willing to risk the entire plot with a seriously overkill demo plan that was certain to be discovered? Why is post-collapse cleanup even Dr. Evil's problem? Why on earth would Dr. Evil even care if his goal was to cause maximum chaos, death and destruction? The Duetsche Bank building was dismantled. That didn't seem to be the end of anyone's world. Fiterman Hall too. And WTC 3, 4, 5 and 6 as well. What's one more? Besides, maybe Dr. Evil owns a demolition company that would be up for the lucrative 7 removal contract.

Put yourself in Dr. Evil's shoes, sitting in your spinning leather recliner at your secret volcano lair. You have been tasked with destroying an unknown and unimportant office tower for reasons unknown and getting away with it without leaving so much as a trace. This being just a tiny part of a much broader operation that will see the decimation of a good chunk of lower Manhattan including no doubt leaving several partially collapsed and unstable buildings behind, the partial destruction of America's military headquarters and the deaths of potentially tens of thousands of people. Presumably you will want to do this in the most expedient and least risky manner possible (truck bomb perhaps).

So why do you really care how neat the pile of rubble is when you are done?

This dismantling business is just an exceedingly poor rationale, and it opens up too many other questions. For example:

If Dr. Evil was so concerned the building come down in a relatively neat and clean fashion why let it burn for 7 hours first? Where is the logic in that? Explosives and fire don't mix. Things can only go wrong in that scenario - reduce the chance of success and increase the risk of being caught.

If someone wired 7 for demo (presumably along with the Twins) the obvious time to blow it is when the North Tower came down when it would be obscured in the dust of the North Tower collapse, not 7 hours later in plain view of the world. Wouldn't that be a better, far less risky cover story? No incriminating video. No firefighters snooping around the building for hours where they could potentially uncover the plot. No risk the explosives would cook off prematurely from the fires or their leads would be damaged or destroyed, thus compromising the entire operation and potentially leaving the building standing and full of incriminating evidence.

Be that as it may, CD's go wrong which sometimes leaves the contractor with the task of removing a partially demo'd and unstable building. Feces happens as they say. But it can be done. It is hardly a deal killer and it seems to me highly unlikely that anyone who has no compunction about attacking buildings in 2 cities, destroying 10 of them and damaging scores more while killing 3,000 people is really going to give a s__t how messy the cleanup is.

So it seems to me either the CD scenario is massively faulty or the plotters chose the most preposterous, over-the-top and unnecessarily risky plan possible in order to destroy an unimportant building that few people had ever heard of. The proof of that is in a favorite AE911T tagline; "Did you know a 3rd tower fell on 9/11?" No, most people don't know because 7 World Trade Center wasn't important. Blowing it up does nothing for the plot but vastly increase the risk of the plot being discovered.

More nonsense.... Wtc7 was headquarters for a wide variety of government organizations, it also housed the emergency response system. If this was the place where everything was planned, you want to destroy any potential evidence, but eyewitnesses don't count to debunkers so let's not get into what the witnesses saw there.

It was attempted to be brushed under the radar... But, in a sense, you are right... Wtc7 was not important to sell the lies to get us into the wars, to increase the security state at home, etc..
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

More nonsense.... Wtc7 was headquarters for a wide variety of government organizations, it also housed the emergency response system. If this was the place where everything was planned, you want to destroy any potential evidence, but eyewitnesses don't count to debunkers so let's not get into what the witnesses saw there.

It was attempted to be brushed under the radar... But, in a sense, you are right... Wtc7 was not important to sell the lies to get us into the wars, to increase the security state at home, etc..

He just wants to regurgitate his own opinions filled with lies and disinformation to try to sound important and legitimate. It seems to me he just created this thread to marginalize all the other threads on WTC7 he disagrees with.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

The New Investigation

The battle cry of conspiracy theorists in recent years in order to keep their movement alive is "we need a new, thorough and impartial investigation". Usually 'new investigation' is just code for 'it was an inside job',… but I digress.

While many, perhaps even most people are perfectly satisfied, there is plenty for many people to be dissatisfied with regarding the existing investigations into 9/11 and plenty of dissatisfied people. But dissatisfied with what and for what reasons? Many are suspicious of the government and its motives, which is fine. Some are just ignorant. A few probably even just plain nuts. What we can say is there are almost as many ways to be dissatisfied as there are dissatisfied people.

Is the dissatisfaction at the detail level or at the big-picture level? And in the end who needs to be satisfied? Does everyone need to be satisfied? Does the lunatic fringe who are never it seems satisfied supposed to be satisfied? How are the 'normal' people going to sit with that? If you believe the Twin Towers were attacked with fake holographic planes then attacked with pre-planted nuclear weapons detonated by energy beams from outer space is it likely you are ever going to be satisfied? Does there need to be a finding of holograms, energy beams and nukes to satisfy those people and if so, what about everyone else? If you believe the Twin Towers were taken down with Therm_te I don't think you are too likely to be satisfied by a finding of mini-nukes and energy beams.

Which claims even deserve to be investigated? It may be your opinion that nukes and energy beams were used but someone else might think that opinion is nuts and say no way to any sort of investigation of that nonsense.

Or does it not matter what the mechanism is just so long as the government gets tagged as the guilty party? Or maybe the Jews? The Illuminati? NWO? Anyone but terrorists? If you are a raging anti-Semite a finding of anything other than it was the Jews will probably not be satisfying. So what happens to those dissatisfied people? Do we get more calls for yet another new, impartial investigation until they are satisfied? And if you are not a raging anti-Semite do you really want to be standing hand-in-hand with them in calling for a new investigation? If you think no-planers are cooks do you really want to stand hand-in-hand with them in calling for a new investigation?

So whose suspicions do we chose to investigate and why? What about satisfying the people who don't have suspicions? Maybe you view them as either complacent or paid shills or whatever, but that's your opinion and nothing more. Why should there be a new investigation just to accommodate your suspicions?

Before there is any sort of new investigation there should probably be a compelling case for one. Suspicions need to be substantiated to form actual conclusions through the process known as reasoning. After all, you may have suspicions and that's fine but others won't share your suspicions or may have completely different suspicions than yours. If you can substantiate the suspicions AND convince others who don't currently share your suspicions by presenting a compelling case then you might have something.

Then we get to the Elephant in the room - once we have decided what is to be investigated and why, who exactly is going to be doing this investigation? I think if you suspect 9/11 was the work of the government you will be none-to-comfortable with this allegedly criminal government investigating itself and expected to arrive at a finding of guilty.

What happens if the new investigation does not reach a conclusion that corresponds with your beliefs? What if all this time you thought it was the U.S. government using mini-nukes and energy beams to steal Iraqi oil only to find out it was the Jews using Therm_te as part of an insurance scam? Or worse yet, what if the new investigation concluded radicalized Muslims hijacked planes to use in Kamikaze attacks against symbols of American economic, military and political power? Would that not be a real investigation?

If the new investigation was run by incompetent hacks and morons who couldn't tell their head from their hindquarters would you be OK with that, so long as they obtain the result you want?

If so, what is it you are really after cause' it sure ain't the truth!
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

The New Investigation

If the new investigation was run by incompetent hacks and morons who couldn't tell their head from their hindquarters would you be OK with that, so long as they obtain the result you want?

If so, what is it you are really after cause' it sure ain't the truth!

you mean like the last one?

do you have the truth Mark?
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

More nonsense.... Wtc7 was headquarters for a wide variety of government organizations, it also housed the emergency response system. If this was the place where everything was planned, you want to destroy any potential evidence, but eyewitnesses don't count to debunkers so let's not get into what the witnesses saw there.

It was attempted to be brushed under the radar... But, in a sense, you are right... Wtc7 was not important to sell the lies to get us into the wars, to increase the security state at home, etc..


1. No EVIDENCE of explosives found in prior investigations
2. No BLAST consistent with explosives
3. No OVERPRESSURE consistent with explosives
4. No SEISMIC record consistent with explosives.
 
re: A place for all things 7 World Trade Center [W:424,1132]

He just wants to regurgitate his own opinions filled with lies and disinformation to try to sound important and legitimate. It seems to me he just created this thread to marginalize all the other threads on WTC7 he disagrees with.

What are the "lies and disinformation"?

Be clear and concise.
 
Back
Top Bottom