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911 Aircraft Departure Gate Positional Data Conflicts With Government Story [W:7]

For perhaps the 5th time mike, VOR cannot correct any errors in the Nav (IRS) system if it was not properly aligned prior to departure, which includes input of Present Position from the Gate Coordinate Chart on American Airlines airplanes. Garbage in = Garbage out.

Please read the above sources for the Boeing 757 IRS/IRU alignment procedure and the associated statements made by pilots who actually use the system, not only in the B757, but also at American Airlines.

Mike, you are going round and round with your questions while ignoring the sources I have provided.

Can you please provide a source which claims that an American Airlines jet can depart with more than a half mile error in position?
Can you provide a source that claims what the error is? No.

How would the pilot know the INS was showing 1/4 mile off? We don't taxi out on INS, we follow the taxi lines. We line up visually with the runway and take off. You were never a Airline Captain, you don't understand how planes taxi out? You don't have what it takes to fly an airline, no ATP, no real knowledge past how to operate after you google it up, or copy and paste for manual. You never used the system and have no clue why the navigation system is 2000 feet off, and why it is updated with DME/DME or VOR/DME.

Pilots for truth can't explain what the error is at initial position. They don't understand the errors involved, or why the INS does not align where you tell the INS is. You posted how to use the INS, not why it would be off at alignment. Displaying zero knowledge of how an INS works, and why it is off during taxi.

You present how the pilot works the IRS/IRU, not why it is off; you don't do what is behind the system, you don't have the experts who know. All you have is an operators manual. You don't have how the system works, you have how the pilots use the system. And you don't understand this.

What is the system error at start up, and during use 2001 with flight 77.
Radar proves the OP is a lie.
The ground controller proves the OP is nonsense.
FDR proves the OP is based on ignorance.
And with logic, DNA found at the Pentagon proves the OP is a lie.
 
For perhaps the 5th time mike, VOR cannot correct any errors in the Nav (IRS) system if it was not properly aligned prior to departure, which includes input of Present Position from the Gate Coordinate Chart on American Airlines airplanes. Garbage in = Garbage out.

Please read the above sources for the Boeing 757 IRS/IRU alignment procedure and the associated statements made by pilots who actually use the system, not only in the B757, but also at American Airlines.

Mike, you are going round and round with your questions while ignoring the sources I have provided.

Can you please provide a source which claims that an American Airlines jet can depart with more than a half mile error in position?

Nope I can't. But I also have not looked into it.

Yet, you fail to explain what you believe allowed the two data sets to match shortly after take off. Your answer is its the million dollar question. No opinion on your part beyond that

So are you saying that in 2001 any 757 that did not set the nav system correctly on the ground and took off, the pilot was helpless to use the system for navigation.? That vor and dme are of no use after takeoff with an improper set nav system. That is your stance. Correct?

The real million dollar question is what are you doing with your "findings".

and yes I read your post on the nav system setup. Also info from other sites. What I am asking for is your explanation on how radar and the flight data could have merged so soon after takeoff
 
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Nope I can't. But I also have not looked into it.

You ask me for sources and then say "I have not looked into it"?

Tell me mike, why am I wasting my time answering your questions if you refuse to look into it?

Yet, you fail to explain what you believe allowed the two data sets to match shortly after take off.

False. I have explained it 5 or 6 fold by now. And when you get the chance to "look into it", you too may find the answer.

So your saying that in 2001 any 757 that did not set the nav system correctly on the ground and took off, the pilot was helpless to use the system for navigation.?

Why would an airline design a time consuming procedure prior to every flight, if it was not required? Are you aware how an airline operates? Do you know what CASM/RASM means?

Google it....

That vor and dme are of no use after takeoff with an improper set nav system. That is your stance. Correct?

False. They are very valuable after departure due to the fact IRS systems drift as a function of time. But if initial procedures are not followed, the FMC/IRS position is useless. Again, please "look into" the sources I have provided instead of ignoring them....

Again, Garbage in = Garbage out.

Do you understand such a concept? Second time asked, mike.

Can you please show me a source where American Airlines allows more than a half mile error in position prior to departure? Second time asked....
 
... Can you please show me a source where American Airlines allows more than a half mile error in position prior to departure? Second time asked....
Can you please show me a source where that says what the error is? No, you have avoided this by posting SPAM of how to use the system, not how it works.

Why can't pilots for truth with less than 0.1 percent of all pilots answer the questions they ask? Because they don't know what the error is. They don't have the knowledge or the expertise to answer what the initial error is, and have no clue the system is updated with DME/DME or VOR/DME. No practical knowledge.
 
You ask me for sources and then say "I have not looked into it"?

Tell me mike, why am I wasting my time answering your questions if you refuse to look into it?



False. I have explained it 5 or 6 fold by now. And when you get the chance to "look into it", you too may find the answer.



Why would an airline design a time consuming procedure prior to every flight, if it was not required? Are you aware how an airline operates? Do you know what CASM/RASM means?

Google it....



False. They are very valuable after departure due to the fact IRS systems drift as a function of time. But if initial procedures are not followed, the FMC/IRS position is useless. Again, please "look into" the sources I have provided instead of ignoring them....

Again, Garbage in = Garbage out.

Do you understand such a concept? Second time asked, mike.

Can you please show me a source where American Airlines allows more than a half mile error in position prior to departure? Second time asked....

Typical dodge by you P4T.

Your question of asking me if I know of any other plane "American Airlines jet can depart with more than a half mile error in position"?.
That question has very little to me asking you about if VOR or DME can be used for navigation.
Your question does nothing to answer for your opinion on why radar and the flight log merged shortly after take-off.
Basically, you have dodged my question.

What I have looked into is your claims. It is noted you didn't say, well there has never been any other cases where a flight took off with that much of an error and was able to correct and here is the sources.

Since you asked.
CASM is a commonly used measure of unit cost by the airline industry
RASM is a commonly used measure of unit revenue for airlines
Your question regarding those terms applies to the topic how?:mrgreen:

I just as might ask if you know what ROS is in dealing with fires. Google it.:mrgreen:

P4T, your similar in some ways of other posters. You read into responses what you want. I have looked at your provided information. In short , it tells part of the story. Hence my other questions. Then you accuse me of not looking into things. I will conclude that you are a waste of my time. Your half answers are biased.


Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
 
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Since you asked.
CASM is a commonly used measure of unit cost by the airline industry
RASM is a commonly used measure of unit revenue for airlines
Your question regarding those terms applies to the topic how?

Airplanes do not make money when sitting on the ground. For every 6 flights, one more hour of flying could be added to the schedule if the full alignment procedure was not required prior to every flight (as you are implying). Multiply that for an entire month and an entire fleet, and the airline could be adding many more flights to the scedule making millions more if a full alignment was not required prior to every flight.

Think logically mike, why would an airline require a 10 min full alignment while the aircraft is stationary on the ground, at the gate, with the input of Present Position prior to every flight if it doesn't matter and the IRS will align shortly after take-off anyway?

It is required because the IRS will not align in flight on an American Airline B757 if there was an error in Present Position prior to flight, as pointed out by the numerous sources I have provided for you.


Hi Mike...

All of the above documents you ask for are in the video. However, it is fair to ask for it here as well....

The following screenshots are from the Boeing 757 Flight Crew Operating Manual. It used to be published here, but has since been taken down for copyright reasons.

Here is what the IRS unit looks like....

757fcom-irs-unit.jpg




Here is the procedure for aligning the IRS (my highlight added in red underline)

757fcom-irs-align-ppos.jpg




Here is the Gate Coordinate Chart which pilots use to enter Present Position when aligning the IRS Unit at the gate prior to flight.

iad-gate-coordinates.jpg




Here is the American Airlines 757/767 Pre-Flight Checklist noting that a FULL alignment is required prior to ALL flights.

aa757-checklist.jpg




Here is the location of Gate D26 when inputting the lat/long into GE from the Gate Coordinates chart above, as it compares to the lat/long data from the "aircraft".

gate-d26-latlong-offset.jpg





And here are various quotes from pilots at pprune, American Airlines Captains and other sources found around the net...

"On the ground, the FMC position is based on the IRS position.

Since inertial systems accumulate position errors as a function of time, the position information being used by the FMC is slowly accumulating errors. These position errors can be detected by observing the position of the airplane on the HSI map. If ... a significant map error is noticed the IRS should be realigned and present position re-entered."

"E. When ALIGN is selected, power is applied to the IRU's and the IRU's normally progress through an alignment period of approximately 10 minutes before the navigational mode is armed. When the switches are maintained in ALIGN, however, the IRU's remain in the align mode. Normal alignment requires the entry of present position into the IRU's."


"There is a big difference between updating a position.. ok..., which is not a problem at all, and Re-Aligning an IRS in flight which is not possible :=."


"If the Present Position is incorrect when the INS is initialized, it will NOT "re-align" itself! It should be shut down and re-initialized with the correct Present Position."



"No IRS realign in flight, ... alignement[sic] realign requires the platform to be stable. no acceleration, no movement, sometimes the movement created by loading container is enough to screw up the align process, on a modern Airliner."


"When you start in the morning, you tell it where it is. Either by telling it the gate position or by giving it the GPS position."

"An error in position input during initial alignment, apart from obvious bias, will give the wrong "G" initial value and induce wrong vertical acceleration (delta between the sensed real one and the erroneous one)"​



From American Airlines Captains who actually viewed the data...

"...on cursory examination something is screwy, those things are so accurate in the 75, 76, 73, and FK100, that we always, always put in the exact gate coordinates on each gate at each airport when preparing to go...."


"....when pilots align the IRS, the Present Position from the Jeppesen Gate Coordinates chart is input by the FO and it is double checked by the Captain. Pilots especially pay close attention to this procedure on a long flight (such as it was reported IAD-LAX)..... there is no possible way, even if the FO and Captain input the wrong Lat/Long with aligned IRU's, that an American Airlines 757 could align an error/offset in flight for such a large error in such a short time as is depicted in the data. Garbage in = Garbage out...... the Capt and FO would have also noticed such a large error if not at the gate, but during taxi to the runway, and if such a large error could not be corrected prior to departure, they would have had to return to the gate."​

(my emphasis added)

Again, the only way you can possibly reconcile such a large offset prior to departure is if you feel the pilots didn't do their job, and/or the data is from an aircraft which had more capability than N644AA as the data aligns itself in flight. Military aircraft had such capability in 2001. N644AA did not.

Hope this helps...

Can you please provide a document stating that it is acceptable to depart with more than a half mile position error at American Airlines? Why do you continue to dodge this question?
 
... Can you please provide a document stating that it is acceptable to depart with more than a half mile position error at American Airlines? Why do you continue to dodge this question?
No accuracy stated. What is the accuracy of the INS when it aligns? Is it perfect? Why was it off? Pilots for truth keep posting the operating instructions, but not the accuracy of the system. Asking questions they can't answer themselves. Thought they were experts, then why can't the state the accuracy of the navigation system?

The facts are:
DNA proves Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, to refute this pilots for truth post operating instructions for FMS.
Radar proves Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, from takeoff to impact, and operating instructions for FMS are offered as a smoke screen?
FDR proves Flight 77 flew from takeoff to impact, and pilots for truth present operating instruction, unable to state the accuracy of the system.
The ground controller debunks the OP.

Failure to prove the OP lie, repeatedly posting operating instructions for the FMS, unable to answer the accuracy question.
 
Can you please provide a document stating that it is acceptable to depart with more than a half mile position error at American Airlines? Why do you continue to dodge this question?

No dodge. you just didn't like the answer.

I am dodging as much as you are in providing the raw acars file with all the codes. Oh wait, you don't have it. Your expert witness won't/can't provide it for you.

So you want me to waste my time looking for a document that most likely does not exist in the public domain. Next you will ask me to write/call all the airlines.

P4T. what you are doing is trying to place the proof on me. It is up to you to show beyond a reasonalble doubt your correct. You have failed so far.
 
No dodge. you just didn't like the answer.

You didn't provide an answer. You are correct though that such text does not exist, because American Airlines requires a full alignment prior to push which includes input of Present Position... as pointed out above by numerous sources.

Mike, the information is there and it is well sourced. Up to you what you wish to do with it.....
 
You didn't provide an answer. You are correct though that such text does not exist, because American Airlines requires a full alignment prior to push which includes input of Present Position... as pointed out above by numerous sources.

Mike, the information is there and it is well sourced. Up to you what you wish to do with it.....
What a load of BS circular failed logic. You said nothing, and can't state the accuracy. Big fail

Why can't you state the accuracy of the system after it aligns?
Don't you know it?
Why do you SPAM with the operating instruction which don't answer the accuracy question?
Don't you know the accuracy of the system?
Based on RNP, what class would Flight 77 be in? Any clue?

Why can't you source the accuracy of the system? Where is that?
 
You didn't provide an answer. You are correct though that such text does not exist, because American Airlines requires a full alignment prior to push which includes input of Present Position... as pointed out above by numerous sources.

Mike, the information is there and it is well sourced. Up to you what you wish to do with it.....

You have the patience of Job.

Mike goes out of his way to fail to understand what things mean. He's see fraud in all the wrong places, and oblivious to it in government.
 
You have the patience of Job.

Mike goes out of his way to fail to understand what things mean. He's see fraud in all the wrong places, and oblivious to it in government.

:lamo :lamo
 
You have the patience of Job.

Well... sometimes my patience wears thin... i'll be the first to admit it... but i'm getting better. It comes with the territory,,, :-)

But thanks!

Mike goes out of his way to fail to understand what things mean. He's see fraud in all the wrong places, and oblivious to it in government.

Agreed. But I do have hope for him yet....
 
...
Agreed. But I do have hope for him yet....

111grdcontroller.webp


Oops, ground control confirms 77 did taxi to runway 30, and then radar tracked 77 to impact, at the Pentagon. Means the OP is a lie. Another lie like the fake Vg diagram and fake Structural Failure speed.

http://bluecollarrepublican.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/aal77_ground.pdf
An expert confirms government story, aka reality of 911. Why do pilots for truth make so many anti-government claims like this failed OP?



You must of missed this when you made up the false claim. You keep ignoring evidence, why?
 
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