What does it mean to be a "christian nation" - Page 3

OKgrannie · 04-06-08, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galenrox

I don't disagree with you on the importance of nor on the justification of the government's aim of educating the public, but ultimately that does not excuse violating the constitution. You can't pretend as if being forced to pay for education once presents a significant disincentive to pay for it again - which clearly violates the free exercise clause when paying for a certain type of education is of religious import.
What this means is alternatives need to be found. Unless you think we should just ignore the first amendment entirely.

It's a violation of the constitution for the government to NOT give incentives to attend sectarian schools???!!!!??? The First Amendment demands that government provide NO incentives nor hindrances to religion. Public schools are neutral towards religion (at least they're supposed to be), so paying for public schools violates the 1st Amendment in no way whatsoever. Excusing people from paying for public schools for religious reasons would be AIDING that particular religion. Diverting funds that should go to public schools in order to AID sectarian schools would be RESPECTING an ESTABLISHMENT of RELIGION.

American · 04-06-08, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lachean

How does secular = immoral? There is a morality proper to the message of liberty and reason.

Actually they were secular and predated the religion of Christianity.

Believing in secularism, and how it is necessary for a free and pluralistic nation /= believing in no religion at all. One can be a believer, and understand the purpose and necessity of secularism.

Your opinion, read the Founders words.

galenrox · 04-07-08, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

It's a violation of the constitution for the government to NOT give incentives to attend sectarian schools???!!!!??? The First Amendment demands that government provide NO incentives nor hindrances to religion. Public schools are neutral towards religion (at least they're supposed to be), so paying for public schools violates the 1st Amendment in no way whatsoever. Excusing people from paying for public schools for religious reasons would be AIDING that particular religion. Diverting funds that should go to public schools in order to AID sectarian schools would be RESPECTING an ESTABLISHMENT of RELIGION.

And you don't think being forced to pay for a particular type of education is a material hindrance to paying for another type of education?

OKgrannie · 04-07-08, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galenrox

And you don't think being forced to pay for a particular type of education is a material hindrance to paying for another type of education?

LOL, paying taxes for anything is a hindrance to buying other stuff. You're still going to have to pay taxes. Society is not obligated to ensure that all people have the money to pay for sectarian schools. Society is obligated to provide a basic education for all in order to prepare young people to accept their responsibilities as citizens.

galenrox · 04-07-08, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

LOL, paying taxes for anything is a hindrance to buying other stuff. You're still going to have to pay taxes. Society is not obligated to ensure that all people have the money to pay for sectarian schools. Society is obligated to provide a basic education for all in order to prepare young people to accept their responsibilities as citizens.

So you admit that paying for public schools is a material hindrance to paying for another education. So how exactly do you draw the conclusion that it doesn't violate the free exercise clause, considering you just said, "The First Amendment demands that government provide NO incentives nor hindrances to religion."?

Lachean · 04-08-08, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American

Your opinion, read the Founders words.

Care to quote me what you're talking about, before we get into a quote fight?

Just to warn you, I'm a Jefferson man.

OKgrannie · 04-08-08, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galenrox

So you admit that paying for public schools is a material hindrance to paying for another education. So how exactly do you draw the conclusion that it doesn't violate the free exercise clause, considering you just said, "The First Amendment demands that government provide NO incentives nor hindrances to religion."?

LOL, it's not a hindrance to religion to be unable to afford private schools. Every religion that I've ever heard of provides free classes in their particular beliefs. Besides, if there is ever a place for homeschooling...teaching your kids about your religion is that place.

Claiming that taxes are an expense that interferes with your free exercise of religion is sort of like saying you don't have a nice dress to wear to church so the government should provide you one---otherwise the government is interfering with your free choice.

niftydrifty · 04-08-08, 10:02 AM

"Christian nation" is a contradiction in terms. Christ's message was about rejecting our tribal nature and developed prejudices, and loving others. it had/has nothing to do with nationalism. it's a personal experience, and can't be a national one.

galenrox · 04-08-08, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

LOL, it's not a hindrance to religion to be unable to afford private schools. Every religion that I've ever heard of provides free classes in their particular beliefs. Besides, if there is ever a place for homeschooling...teaching your kids about your religion is that place.

Claiming that taxes are an expense that interferes with your free exercise of religion is sort of like saying you don't have a nice dress to wear to church so the government should provide you one---otherwise the government is interfering with your free choice.

So now it's not a hindrance? Funny, I thought you said, "paying taxes for anything is a hindrance to buying other stuff."

It is not your place to judge whether someone's freedom to practice the tenets of their faith is sufficient, if a common education is an important tenet of one's faith then it's an important tenet of their faith, there isn't religious freedom if you're granted a veto on the validity of their practices. I have never claimed the government needs to fund religious education, only that it does not have the right to make people pay for secular education first before they can pay for religious education. If you don't think educating the public is a justifiable aim of the government that's on you.

But please, tell me how if I want to buy x I'm forced to pay x + y and if I want y I only have to pay y how the one making me pay x + y isn't hindering me in my purchase of x.

OKgrannie · 04-08-08, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galenrox

It is not your place to judge whether someone's freedom to practice the tenets of their faith is sufficient, if a common education is an important tenet of one's faith then it's an important tenet of their faith, there isn't religious freedom if you're granted a veto on the validity of their practices.

Nobody is denying anyone the right to attend a sectarian school. It is not the responsibility of government, of society, of those of other faiths to pay for it or in any way make sure others can pay for it.

Quote:

I have never claimed the government needs to fund religious education, only that it does not have the right to make people pay for secular education first before they can pay for religious education. If you don't think educating the public is a justifiable aim of the government that's on you.

But please, tell me how if I want to buy x I'm forced to pay x + y and if I want y I only have to pay y how the one making me pay x + y isn't hindering me in my purchase of x.

Government is assisting in funding religious education if those who wish that can be excused from their other tax responsibilities. Educating youth, and making that education available to all, is the responsbility of ALL citizens, and the responsibility is to pay their fair share. Excusing them on a religious basis is RESPECTING an establishment of religion.