rathi

One persons right do not trump another. You can pray yourself, but you can't make anyone else do it.

Thats not true at all. Christians are more than welcome to live in a purely Christian community. All they have to do build a compound and live in. Although I hate to use Phelps as an example, he certainly lives in a Christian Community.

Show of some examples.

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He'd be right at home on some ancient battlefield, swinging an axe into somebody's face.

the makeout hobo

Who believes that, again?

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The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).Vague is a man of honor

Lachean

Yes but it does not matter what Locke said, it matters what Adam's said, and what Jefferson said, and what the continental congress decided; and out into the constitution that outlines the role and functions of our government.

Only in the governance of a pluralistic society are one man's beliefs regarding is hod irrelevant, because free people tend to have many different gods.

No one is advocating that establishments of religion should be abolished, only that they have no place in our government. That reason alone, and not one particular brand of mysticism is sufficient in making the rules that govern many different kinds of people.

No one is being forced into any position as if their god's existence does not matter, only that their dogma is irrelevant to the governance of other people; Secularism is absolutely essential to liberty, and is the bane of theocracy.

Which is the other clause that you're talking about? Which clause does secularism contradict and limit?

Thats why secularism is important, because not all people are governed by the same convictions, some for non-religious reasons, and it would be in opposition to the notion of liberty for a government to support the establishment any one god or faith over any other.

Where are people being prevented from praying in school? Rather than no longer being forced to?

Great, if there is any part you would like to discuss, shoot me a PM.

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"Truth, in the matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived." - Oscar Wilde

OKgrannie

Exactly how are "Christian morals" different from "other" morals? What characteristics does an "immoral government" exhibit?


The first proposal for a separation amendment read: "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed." Since it was defeated, that indicates the main purpose of the amendment was NOT to prevent establishment of a national religion. In addition to believing that government should not limit religion within society, they believed that government should not SUPPORT religion within society.

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The greatest danger to liberty lurks in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.---Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

galenrox

I have never suggested AT ALL making anyone who doesn't want to pray pray. Go read my arguments.
And what of education? Are they still forced to pay tuition to secular schools?
The requirement of religious people to pay tuitions at secular schools without regard for whether they intend to attend.

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galenrox

Me, for one. I have no idea what you're going for with this, are you suggesting that I need to hold common beliefs for my first amendment rights to apply?

OKgrannie

No one pays "tuition" to public schools. Do you mean taxes? If so, taxes are paid by everyone regardless of religion, regardless of whether you have children enrolled. It is a benefit to the whole of society to have an educated populace, therefore public schools must be supported by everyone whether or not you use them. You must also pay for public highways whether or not you personally drive on them. You must also pay for public parks and public swimming pools and public nature reserves whether or not you personally enjoy them. You don't get a refund from government because you decide to pay for a private school for your children, just as you don't get a refund from government when you decide to drive on a toll road instead of a free highway, or build your own swimming pool instead of using the public one.

conquer

Why not going to the very beginning?

The pilgrims came escaping from the way of worship imposed in England.

The pilgrims didn't come and started a new religion, but they wanted to worship "the same god" in their way. They might started new religious "denominations" from the same religion, this is to say, from worship to the "same god".

The religion was the same: the Judeo-Christian religion.

The Christian religion was expanded in Europe as the Catholic Church.

A dude didn't agree with the way of worship of the Catholics and nailed his protests in a monastery door, since then, the groups who separated themselves from the Catholic Church were called "Protestans".

The protestans also were divided in many denominations, but they still were Christians.

The first travelers were Anglicans, Quakers, Puritans, etc. Their religion was based in or accepted the teachings of Christ.

Centuries later, when the issue of "freedom of religion" was included in the Constitution, the meaning was in reference to the same god, but with different ways of worship.

The Constitution wasn't directed in its origin to include the Muslim religion as an example. This is a modern interpretation, the same as well it happens with the phrase "WE the PEOPLE" that for Adams didn't include women, poor people, slaves, children and more, but only people of influence and power.

So, it can be say that the Unites States of America started as a Christian nation.

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If you go to the Washington Mansion in Mount Vernon, Virginia, you can read in one of the articles posted in the walls, that the freedom of religion was directed to be to the god of the bible, not so to any other god.

galenrox

Well man, considering Adam's state was formed by Puritans who took taxes from all for the congregational church, to which conceptualization of Nature's Creator do you think they were referring? I'm just saying man. I think the constitution is clear in making no theological statement other than the assurance of both major aspects of religious freedom.
I wouldn't say religion has no place in government. It has no place using government to oppress one's upon another. People cannot be reasonably expected to separate their politics from their religion, and we must be sure to have sufficient enforcement of the rule of law so that attempts to use government to oppress one's religion upon another will be thwarted.
The point is that secularism makes theological statements, it is a religion when forced upon areas of religious practice like education.

Free exercise, and really if you think about it, it could be argued it compromises the establishment clause too.
I agree the government should not oppress one's religious views upon another, as the first amendment entails. A consequence is that the government cannot infringe upon aspects of life that are of religious significance.
I'm not just talking about praying, I'm talking about organized prayer between everyone, and that means the government takes no action to prevent them from being educated in an environment where that does not involve oppressing their religion upon anyone else.
Yeah dude, when I get done with it.

galenrox

I don't disagree with you on the importance of nor on the justification of the government's aim of educating the public, but ultimately that does not excuse violating the constitution. You can't pretend as if being forced to pay for education once presents a significant disincentive to pay for it again - which clearly violates the free exercise clause when paying for a certain type of education is of religious import.
What this means is alternatives need to be found. Unless you think we should just ignore the first amendment entirely.