tryreading

It was not simply a metaphor. And I have just shown you through the letter Jefferson wrote to his attorney general that he was doing much more than responding to the Danbury people. He says so himself in his own words. He was trying to sow the truth and principle of the establishment clause to the American people. If you read the short letter you will see that in plain English.

Yes, Jefferson rode on horseback to church in a public building. Not ordinarily a churchgoer, he used this very public display to counter attacks by the Federalists that he was an atheist who despised Christianity. These were untrue accusations that threatened to weaken his effectiveness as President.

You brought up the phrase '...separation of church and state...' I only responded to you.

FluffyNinja

Well, I must hand it to you TR, you've done your research. Unlike some other posters, you seem to have an understanding of the CONTEXT in which these speeches were made and letters were written. You'd make a good history teacher! Anyway, you did focus on the ONE founding Father, (besides Thomas Paine) that I cannot defend as a true supporter of a "Christian Nation!" Jeffereson, in many instances, is an enigma - seeming to adopt contradictary viewpoints on many issues. He may be the ONE founding Father who'd have a chance surviving the modern US political game. He really knew how to "flip-flop" in order to get things accomplished.

__________________
Ask not what you can do for your country, ask, "Where's my government handout?"

aegyptos

Obviously you more about Franklin than the rest of us. I just finished a recently published bio of the man by Walter Isaacson. He didn't make this charge. Please document your assertion. I'd like to follow up on it.

Mach

That's wonderful, really. You're also from Mississippi. And in Philosophy 101 we learned that appeals to authority and veiled ad hominem are fallacy.

Yet the Constitution doesn't list "god" anywhere. And certainly not Jesus, which would be a pre-requisite for being a Christian acknowledging document. It's not. Many of the founding fathers were deists, scholars of the enlightenment, and politicians. Politicians know how to pay lip service to the majority, but in writing, they clearly leave out the christians. What about the federalist papers? It's apparently not the primary topic there either.

You may think they "should" have made it a christian nation, or you may think they "could have", but really now. Everyone who is reasonable knows that its' a secular nation, that includes and embraces all religions, including Christianity. This was because it was based on the enlightenment thinking, not religious hate and ignorance.

Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
. The Enlightenment is held to be the source of critical ideas, such as the centrality of freedom, democracy and reason as primary values of society. This view argues that the establishment of a contractual basis of rights would lead to the market mechanism and capitalism, the scientific method, religious tolerance, and the organization of states into self-governing republics through democratic means.

Christian bullying is still alive and well, you have something more to be proud of.

For contrast, see SLMs post. It quite different than the U.S. constitution, and it is an embodiment of intolerance and ignorance. Good thing we didn't have the Christian ***-hat version of this as our constitution. And I'll thank reason for that, and our founding fathers and the people that suported it and support it today. I wonder if that includes you.

1st. That there is one eternal God, and a future state of rewards and punishments.
2d. That God is publicly to be worshipped.
3d. That the Christian religion is the true religion
4th. That the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are of divine inspiration, and are the rule of faith and practice.
5th. That it is lawful and the duty of every man being thereunto called by those that govern, to bear witness to the truth.

Scary stuff eh?

-Mach

__________________
Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and I am content.- Conan

tryreading

He, of course, wasn't the only FF who rebelled against the religion/government alliance, but we can deal with them one at a time.

For instance, John Adams wanted separation between church and state, in those words. He even spoke of a 'perfect separation' which someone has already quoted on this thread.

FluffyNinja

And you also took my quote out of context. Read my full sentence:
Where's the veiled ad hominem?

I never made the claim that the Constitution names "God" or "Jesus," did I? neither did I claim it was a "Christian-acknowledging" document. The question in my original post is: "Was the United States founded on Christian PRINCIPLES?" Meaning, did the Founding Fathers "lean" on their religious beliefs when creating the U.S.? Or, was it their intent that our nation should be at least GUIDED by Christian principles? This is not even close to the same thing as "creating a National Religion," which many have already pointed out, would have been in direct violation of the First Amendment. Also, we KNOW that MOST of the Founding Fathers practiced Christianity. Anyone who debates this fact, is completely ignorant of history. A few, like Jefferson, claimed, later in life, to be Deists, but NONE claimed to be Atheist, Agnostic or even Secular in their beliefs.

Your statement here is contradictary. SECULAR means "non-religious." How could we be SECULAR and "embrace all religions?"
From the Oxford English Dictionary
secular
/sekyoolr/
• adjective 1. not religious, sacred, or spiritual.


I am indeed a Christian; however, I must admit, I've been on the "other side" of the "bullying" far more times than I've ever been the "agressor." I've never tried to force my beliefs on others

Not if you're a born again Christian.

tryreading

I mistakenly wrote John Adams above, but meant James Madison.

Mach

You're mistaken. Many according to historians where flavors of deism. People may claim to be this or that, but when one analyzes their actual stated beliefs and opinions, one can categorize them appropriately. I use to say I was spiritual and not religious, but this was a lie. I am 100% atheist. If someone read something I wrote when I was 18, I was spiritual. Yet I wasn't. Are you aware of reality works in this regard?

Like all good politicians these men avoided being labled as atheists and agnostics, just as many in the U.S. do today. In countries where religion is less of a power monger, leaders more openly declare their lack of belief in fairy tales. Of course, if you're a leader of a party with a large religious base, again, who cares what you really are, when fools will look only at what you "claim" to be.


It's not contradictory, you're mistake is worrisome. I will break it down for you.

P1: What is a government. The ruling power.
P2: The ruling power allows for freedom of religion, and the ruling power itself declares itself not affiliated with any religion.
conclusion, This secular government allows for all of those it rules, to practice any relgion they desire.

If you don't understand how it is you are free, you don't deserve your freedom. And when you reveal you don't understand it, you may find that an enterprising, more capable person, will captialize on your inability to understand your own freedom. You may prefer being a pawn or slave, because your masters have brainwashed you into it. Is it pity you deserve or contempt?
====================================

So, in conclusion, the U.S. constitution is secular, and doesn't discuss your Jesus Christ mythos. God was not in the U.S. pledge until later when added by Christian monsters. And it wasn't on money until some jackass christians pushed it there as well.

So, apparently the U.S. is founded on the principle of the separation of religion and government.

Thank humans.

-Mach

FluffyNinja

SOME were Deists. My post said MOST were Christian - the many quotes that I listed earlier in this thread proves it. I can provide many, many more.
Uh, yeah. That was kind of the entire purpose of my original post. When we ACTUALLY find "claims" made by these very same men, isn't that exactly what we're doing................analyzing their stated beliefs? I don't understand the difference between what they "claimed" and what they "stated." Mach, perhaps your understanding of semantics trancends that of us "lesser" beings? By the way, unless you've invented a time machine and have travelled back to the 18th Century to spend quality time with the founding fathers, I don't see how you have anything else to "go on" but their "claims."
Uh, no. This apparently is YOUR reality, not mine.
Maybe they avoided being labeled atheist or agnostic because they ACTUALLY WEREN'T? Is this, at least in the realm of possibility?
The majority of these men were not the "leaders of a country" or of a "party," so how does this apply? How are we going to "look at what they really are" - through your magical scrying glass which transcends time and space? What else do we have to go on except their own "claims" and the "claims" made about them by others who knew them?

Please don't ever try and write a history book, your "magical spy-glass approach." I fear, would not be accepted all that well among the circles of academia.


Very astute observations, one and all. And why would I disagree? This is a great description of what our government has evolved into; however, you seem to miss the entire reason for this entire thread, yet again. My question is/was/has been all along, "Was this the original intent of ALL of our Founding Fathers, or was it their INTENT that it evolve otherwise - into a nation founded upon Christian Principles?" It's not my purpose to argue the points regarding religious freedom you mentioned nor to debate whether or not the Establishment Clause exists. We know it does and we know what its rammifications are. Noone can deny that.

American

This nation was not founded on the basis of atheism. It was based on the assumption that a God or Creator existed, who bestowed unalienable rights upon all men that could not be taken away by men (e.g., life, liberty, pursuit of happiness). The Founders assumed a religious people of moral values just like those promoted by Christians were the backbone of the citizenry, and that only a religious people could self-govern.

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It's Obama's fault!