U.S. - A "Christian Nation?" - Page 19

Dr. L Jon · 05-21-08, 05:54 PM

It is no longer Christian.

The Baron · 05-27-08, 08:51 PM

Was the United States FOUNDED upon Christian principles? - FluffyNinja

Yep.

John Adams
“Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.”
- Letter of June21, 1776

Benjamin Rush
“The only foundation for…a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

“…Christianity is the only true and perfect religion; and that in proportion as mankind adopt its principles and obey its precepts they will be wise and happy.”
- Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798

Samuel Adams
“Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness.”
- Letter to John Trumbell, October 16, 1778

Charles Carroll (signer of the Declaration)
“Without morals, a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they, therefore, who are decrying the Christian religion…are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free government.”
- Letter to James Mettenry, November 4, 1800

“The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor…and this alone, that renders us invincible.”
- Letter to Archibald Blair, January 8, 1799

Now I don't know if Benjamin Franklin was a Christian. I don't think he was. But he definately believed in God.

Benjamin Franklin
“…only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.”
- Letter to Messrs. The Abbes Chalut and Arnaud, April 17, 1787

Noah Webster
“…the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws…
All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.”
- History of the United States, 1833

John Adams
“We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions unbridled by morality and religion…
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
- Address to the Officers of the Massachusetts Militia, 1798

Daniel Webster
“To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are a waste paper.”
- Oration at Hanover, N.H., July 4, 1800

George Washington
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
- Farewell Address, 1796

James Wilson (signed U.S. Constitution and Supreme Court Justice)
“Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine…
Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends and mutual assistants.”

But even aside from what our Founding Fathers had to say, the early days of our nation was one clearly dominated by Christianity. Alexis De Tocqueville was a Frenchman who came to this country and wrote a two volume literary piece called Democracy and America. As an independent source, these were some of his observations…

Alexis De Tocqueville
“The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive one without the other.”

“The religious atmosphere of the country was the first thing that struck me upon my arrival in the U.S. In France, I had seen the spirits of religion and freedom almost always marching in opposite directions, in America, I found them intimately linked together and joined and reigned over the same land…”

“Religion should therefore be considered as the first of their political institutions. From the start, politics and religion have agreed and have not since ceased to do so.”
- Democracy and America

So tightly knit was Christianity tied to this idea of Liberty that Isaiah 33:22 was the justification for the three separate but equal branches of government.

Isaiah 33:22
“For the LORD is our judge, (judicial branch)
The LORD is our lawgiver, (legislative branch)
The LORD is our king…” (executive branch)

And please note our own Declaration of Independence…

The Declaration of Independence
“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

The term “the law of nature” was a very specific term coined by Sir Edward Coke…

Sir Edward Coke (1552-1634)
“The law of nature is that which God at the time of creation of the nature of man infused into his heart, for his preservation and direction…the moral law, called the law of nature.”

This same term was later used by William Blackstone who wrote a law textbook. If you were a lawyer, as was Thomas Jefferson, you studied Blackstone.

William Blackstone
“…as man depends absolutely upon his Maker for everything, it is necessary that he should, in all points, conform to his Maker’s will. This will of his Maker is called the law of nature…This law of nature…dictated by God Himself is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity in contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority…from this original.”

“Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these.”
- Commentaries on the Law (A law textbook / 2,500 copies sold in America prior to the Revolutionary War)

Part 1 of 2

The Baron · 05-27-08, 08:55 PM

Part 2 of 2

But back to our own Declaration of Independence…

The Declaration of Independence“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

“Creator” is a very specific name for the Christian God of the Bible as evidenced by the following verses:

Genesis 14:19
and he blessed Abram, saying, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.

Genesis 14:22
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath

Deuteronomy 32:6
Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Ecclesiastes 11:7
[ Remember Your Creator While Young ] Light is sweet, and it pleases the eyes to see the sun.

Ecclesiastes 12:1
Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them"-

Isaiah 27:11
When its twigs are dry, they are broken off and women come and make fires with them. For this is a people without understanding; so their Maker has no compassion on them, and their Creator shows them no favor.

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

Isaiah 43:15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, Israel's Creator, your King."

Matthew 19:4
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

1 Peter 4:19
So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

The idea that the Christian God of the Bible was their “Creator” would not have been lost on the Founding Fathers.

Gouverneur Morris
“Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man towards God”.
- Life of Gouverneur Morris, Vol. III.

Samuel Adams
“Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, or inculcating in their own minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity…in short of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.”
- Letter to John Adams, October 4, 1790

Benjamin Rush
“In contemplating the political institutions of the United States, I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them. We profess to be republicans and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government. That is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible.”
- A Defense of the Use of the Bible as a School Book, 1798

Northwest Ordinance, Article III
“Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”
- July 13, 1787 (If a territory wanted to become a state, it had to meet these requirements.)

Noah Webster
“In my view, the Christian Religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed…no truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian Religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
- Reply to David McClure, October 25, 1836

This has always been a Christian nation and Christianity is, in fact, the foundation for this country.

If you need further proof that this country was founded upon Christianity, please consider the New England Primer, the first grade text book used by the Colonist (approximately 5,000,000 copies in print in America for a population of approximately 4,000,000 people if I recall correctly. It was the second most popular book in the colonies at the time. Only the Bible sold more copies).

It is right and proper that I credit Del Tackett and his work with the Truth Project for my efforts here.

Doc Howl · 05-27-08, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

The Muslim Fundamentalists have obviously identified the United States as a "Christian Nation," as we seem to be one of the primary targets of their jihad. However, I would like to pose two questions:

#1 - Was the United States FOUNDED upon Christian principles? With the recent growth of secularization in America, I wonder if we have been "conveniently" ignoring the intentions of our most cherished Founding Fathers?

Their intentions were mostly secular.

Doc Howl · 05-27-08, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Baron

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Part 2 of 2

But back to our own Declaration of Independence…

The Declaration of Independence“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

“Creator” is a very specific name for the Christian God of the Bible as evidenced by the following verses:

The DoI is an American historical document, not a legal document.

The constitution is a legal document, and makes no mention of any creator.

And, just for kicks, you do know what the author of the DoI called religion, right?

scourge99 · 05-27-08, 11:14 PM

This country was founded BY Christians. However, our government is secular. The idea of secularism is NOT a Christian concept or espoused by any Christian teachings predating the US that I'm aware of. One could argue that because the idea of a secular state was implemented by Christians that it is therefore a Christian idea and thus Christianity must be the foundation for this country. This can be credited to Jesus who preached a form of tolerance for ones government (render unto Caesar), a concept foreign to all previous religions and even more foreign to some current religions such as Islam. It would be foolish to discredit the role Christianity has played, for better or for worse, in the formation of this government but its also quite silly to claim anything about this country is Christian apart from the people within it.

Christian people (majority)? Definitely.

Christian government? Definitely NOT.

Christian nation? Depends on your definition of nation.

The Baron · 05-28-08, 12:13 AM

“The DoI is an American historical document, not a legal document.” – Doc Howl

The Declaration of Independence is the document that establishes our country. That is why we celebrate the “birth” of our country on July 4th…the day the Declaration was initially signed by our Founding Fathers.

“The constitution is a legal document, and makes no mention of any creator.” – Doc Howl

The Constitution establishes our government…not our country.

The Constitution was adopted in 1787.

Our country was established in 1776 with the signing of the Declaration of Independence which, as I’ve already demonstrated, does make mention of our Creator.

Our original government was defined by the Articles of Confederation and was adopted in 1777, ten years prior to the Constitution.

Bodhisattva · 07-09-08, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FluffyNinja
The Muslim Fundamentalists have obviously identified the United States as a "Christian Nation," as we seem to be one of the primary targets of their jihad. However, I would like to pose two questions:

#1 - Was the United States FOUNDED upon Christian principles? With the recent growth of secularization in America, I wonder if we have been "conveniently" ignoring the intentions of our most cherished Founding Fathers?

The USA was founded on "common sense" legal and moral opinions by a bunch of Christians that most definitely assured the people through the Constitution that the USA would not be a Christian Nation, even in its infancy, but rather a nation of just laws that protect people's life, liberty and property that was and is distinct and separate from any religion.

The silenced majority · 07-09-08, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

The USA was founded on "common sense" legal and moral opinions by a bunch of Christians that most definitely assured the people through the Constitution that the USA would not be a Christian Nation, even in its infancy, but rather a nation of just laws that protect people's life, liberty and property that was and is distinct and separate from any religion.

I guess you didn't check some of the original drafts for some of the early State Constitutions?

Bodhisattva · 07-09-08, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The silenced majority

I guess you didn't check some of the original drafts for some of the early State Constitutions?

Actually, I have.

When talking about a "Chrisitan Nation", I am referring to the adopted US Constitution here only, but even taking into account drafts and such... the Founders reasoned that they should omit aspects of religion in favor of maintaining secularism and thus my statement stands unchallengable.