U.S. - A "Christian Nation?" - Page 13

scourge99 · 04-18-08, 03:49 AM

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

Right. I'm certain if we just show the jihadists that we're a secular nation, they'll accept that - no more attacks! Quite logical really.

We will never convince the close-minded... of Christianity or Islam. Everyone else can decide for themselves. The logic and the history is undeniable.

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

1. I claimed that Islam was the religion that predominately perpetrates acts of violence these days utilizing suicide bombing as one of their primary MO's.
2. The attacks on September 11, 2001, were suicide bombings perpetrated my Muslim fanatics.
3. You immediately responded that you would blow yourself up if your country was invaded and it contributed to freeing your country.
4. We must conclude that you sympathize/empathize with the Sept. 11 terrorists as "simply defending their own country" which was being invaded.

What was the last sentence of the paragraph. It summed up the purpose quite well... here it is: Religion, when examining the motivation for such human actions is but one of many reasons for an action. In other words.... wait... that doesn't need a re-hash... its crystal clear.

#4 is a strawman. Key words "we must conclude", ie, you either misunderstood me or you read at a 5th grade level.

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

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The Japanese blew themselves up during WW2. I would blow myself up if our country was invaded and it contributed to freeing our country. Religion, when examining the motivation for such human actions is but one of many reasons for an action.

Note: (We must throw out the comment about Japan, as your knowledge of history seems to be lacking. Japan was not invaded at the time kamikaze pilots began their attacks. = False Logic based on manipulation of historical facts)

I never said anything about Japan being invaded. I said there are MANY REASONS for people blowing themselves up and its not restricted to religion. I gave the Japanese and myself as an example... whats so hard about reading simple sentences???

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

It's insulting to have apologists like you avoid the facts and blame ignorance instead of an evil, murderous, fanatical religious group for the deaths of thousands. Based on your warped logic, we'd be forced to release these kinds of terrorists when captured because it was IGNORANCE that led to the action, not willful evil. And if was IGNORANCE - this implies a lack of knowledge about what they were actually doing - we certainly can't keep people locked up for being dumb, right?

You really went all out on this strawman... too bad it was all for not. Normally I wouldn't care but when you argue to the person (IE "you're a terrorist apologist") and you are proven so obviously wrong its so much more fun to rub it in.

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

you obviously have no clue about what FAITH actually is. I pity you.

Please explain it to me. I ask only one thing... do not use loaded words.

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

You put your trust in man (and everything that can be proven), I'll keep my trust in something GREATER ( that can't be proven via the scientific method). Someday, we'll see whose "gamble" paid off. For your sake, I pray it will be yours.

Maybe someday you'll develop that part of the brain that makes you question what you've always presumed is fact. That is only the beginning...

scourge99 · 04-18-08, 04:06 AM

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

Well, that would depend upon what that faith consisted of. If its "do unto others as you would have them do unto you...", "love thy enemy...", "turn the other cheek..." render unto ceasar..." and such I dont see the problem.... unless you happen to live under the rule of an illigitimate ceasar.

You're forgetting the constant belittlement that we are all dirty sinners from birth. The emphasis on the evil of contraceptives even in AIDS ravaged countries. The obsessive preoccupation with sex. The anti-intellectualism that is held by those who would dare not question the word of God written by man.

These are just the ones off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

N THE OTHER HAND, put "jihad" into the search function at ...

I don't have a strong background in Islam and the Quran. Its been my experience that most religious teachings are taken out of context and used incorrectly when being used by an opponent.

Its not that I don't believe you might have a valid point but I just haven't taken the time to validate your interpretations. Most religious books are self-contradicting. EG, just look at the Old Testament and New Testament.

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

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If Christians and Muslims and all other religions and non-religions could admit that their beliefs are unprovable and others beliefs are plausible the path of secularism becomes clear as a means of peace and final resolution.

A worldwide Islamic caliphate applying Shariah as law IS NOT a plausible path.

Please explain how secularism would encompass or even acknowledge Shariah law? I think you misread my post.

dixon76710 · 04-18-08, 08:01 AM

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Originally Posted by scourge99

Its not that I don't believe you might have a valid point but I just haven't taken the time to validate your interpretations.

I provided no interpretations but instead merely provided the text.

scourge99 · 04-18-08, 02:24 PM

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

I provided no interpretations but instead merely provided the text.

Then you really have made no argument. You have posited an idea but nothing more.

I can provide a plethora of Biblical quotes that would represent Christianity as a violent barbaric religion but that would be disingenuous because without proper knowledge of other contradictory sections of the Bible or the correct interpretation of these violent sections one would get an inaccurate picture of what Christianity is.

If there is one thing I have learned over the years its that CORRECTLY interpreting and understanding law and religious texts is extremely time consuming and difficult. One cannot cherry pick certain portions of such texts and honestly believe to get a correct understanding of the nature and disposition of the text.

dixon76710 · 04-18-08, 05:12 PM

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Originally Posted by scourge99

Then you really have made no argument. You have posited an idea but nothing more.

I presented Islamic doctrine. The Bukarri(sp?) hadith to be specific.

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Originally Posted by scourge99

I can provide a plethora of Biblical quotes that would represent Christianity as a violent barbaric religion but that would be disingenuous because without proper knowledge of other contradictory sections of the Bible or the correct interpretation of these violent sections one would get an inaccurate picture of what Christianity is.

"Contradictory"???? Its called the new testament. Its not a contradiction. Its a difference.

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Originally Posted by scourge99

If there is one thing I have learned over the years its that CORRECTLY interpreting and understanding law and religious texts is extremely time consuming and difficult. One cannot cherry pick certain portions of such texts and honestly believe to get a correct understanding of the nature and disposition of the text.

If you search on "jihad" as I suggested, it supplies every single reference to jihad in the hadith. I merely provided the first two, I didnt cherry pick anything. You can read all of them and see the meaning expressed in the first two are accurate.

scourge99 · 04-18-08, 06:50 PM

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

I presented Islamic doctrine. The Bukarri(sp?) hadith to be specific.

And you have asserted nothing. You beg the question. This discussion is pointless if all you are doing is providing literary sources but no argument.

Do you have a solid position or not? Its ok to claim ignorance... i haven't studied Islam or the Quran in great enouhg detail to make the claims many people on this forum do. At least I am honest enough to admit that.

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

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I can provide a plethora of Biblical quotes that would represent Christianity as a violent barbaric religion but that would be disingenuous because without proper knowledge of other contradictory sections of the Bible or the correct interpretation of these violent sections one would get an inaccurate picture of what Christianity is.

"Contradictory"???? Its called the new testament. Its not a contradiction. Its a difference.

Surely you acknowledge there are many contradictory messages when comparing the New testament to the Old testament. Not all of which are readily, directly, or easily explained. If you want to spin this with euphemisms and call it "differences" go right ahead. You still fail to address the issues I have presented.

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

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If there is one thing I have learned over the years its that CORRECTLY interpreting and understanding law and religious texts is extremely time consuming and difficult. One cannot cherry pick certain portions of such texts and honestly believe to get a correct understanding of the nature and disposition of the text.

If you search on "jihad" as I suggested, it supplies every single reference to jihad in the hadith. I merely provided the first two, I didnt cherry pick anything. You can read all of them and see the meaning expressed in the first two are accurate.

This doesn't address the problems I presented in my posts.

dixon76710 · 04-19-08, 03:15 PM

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Originally Posted by scourge99

And you have asserted nothing. You beg the question. This discussion is pointless if all you are doing is providing literary sources but no argument. Do you have a solid position or not?

Yes-

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Originally Posted by dixon76710

It causes us no problem when they preach salvation and eternal life. It does cause problems when they preach that Jihad to re establish the world wide caliphate is the way to salvation and eternal life.

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Originally Posted by scourge99

Its ok to claim ignorance... i haven't studied Islam or the Quran in great enouhg detail to make the claims many people on this forum do. At least I am honest enough to admit that.

Ive read the Koran and hadiths. Everything translated from Usama Bin Laden, Ayman Zawahiri, Sayyid Qutb, Said Abu al-Mundhir, Marwan Hadid, Maqdisi Abu Muhammad, Abu Qatada al-Filistini and others.

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Originally Posted by scourge99

Surely you acknowledge there are many contradictory messages when comparing the New testament to the Old testament. Not all of which are readily, directly, or easily explained. If you want to spin this with euphemisms and call it "differences" go right ahead. You still fail to address the issues I have presented.

Readily, directly and easily explained. The 21st amendment repealing prohibition isnt a "contradictory" message, it abrogates it. The 18th no longer in effect, is replaced by the 21st. Just as the new testament replaces the old.

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Galatians 2:15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Christianity is all 'love thy neighybor', 'do unto others', 'render unto ceasar' and all that. As opposed to this whole convert or die crap

[9.5] ... then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

FluffyNinja · 04-20-08, 08:34 PM

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Originally Posted by scourge99

Maybe someday you'll develop that part of the brain that makes you question what you've always presumed is fact. That is only the beginning...

Maybe someday you'll have the intestinal fortitude to admit openly that there is only ONE major religious group today who has declared "HOLY WAR" on all others and seems to have no problem killing the innocent - Islam. Instead you keep avoiding this by alluding to your view that fundamentalists from ANY religion are bad and that the Japanese blew themselves up and that you would too if your country was being invaded....... blah, blah, blah.

You can call it strawman all you like, but anyone with half a brain reading your responses can see you're either (1) extremely naive, (2) extremely misinformed, or (3) you are completely aware of how much death and destruction has been caused over the past 50 years in the name of Islam and you're simply choose to ignore/deny that Islamic religious doctrine is at the heart of the violence = Islamic Apologist. Well, which is it?

FluffyNinja · 04-20-08, 08:50 PM

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Originally Posted by scourge99

You're forgetting the constant belittlement that we are all dirty sinners from birth. The emphasis on the evil of contraceptives even in AIDS ravaged countries. The obsessive preoccupation with sex. The anti-intellectualism that is held by those who would dare not question the word of God written by man.

Does your lack of knowledge know no bounds? Your assumptions that ALL Christians believe that we are born sinners, or that contraception is a sin, or are "obsessed with sex," as you put it, equate to nothing more than pure, unadulterated, stereotypical ignorance. You can't lump ALL Christians or Evangelicals together any more than you can lump "ALL Democrats", or "ALL Americans" together into the same mindset. Statements like the one above border on the absurd and strip you of any credibility in this type of discussion.

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I don't have a strong background in Islam and the Quran.

That's a shock!

You apparently don't have a very strong background in Christianity either. Or in reality for that matter.

scourge99 · 04-20-08, 09:36 PM

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

Maybe someday you'll have the intestinal fortitude to admit openly that there is only ONE major religious group today who has declared "HOLY WAR" on all others and seems to have no problem killing the innocent - Islam. Instead you keep avoiding this by alluding to your view that fundamentalists from ANY religion are bad and that the Japanese blew themselves up and that you would too if your country was being invaded....... blah, blah, blah.

The only thing thats clear is that you are afraid to address the arguments I've made. You've chosen to ignore the content of my last post entirely and instead opted to restate things I have already responded to.

Was our chain of responses to confusing for you to follow?

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

You can call it strawman all you like, but anyone with half a brain reading your responses can see you're either (1) extremely naive, (2) extremely misinformed, or (3)

Empty words. You have almost entirely slipped into ad-hominem rants rather than debating the topic. You might want to reconsider your intentions for even debating.

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Originally Posted by FluffyNinja

you are completely aware of how much death and destruction has been caused over the past 50 years in the name of Islam and you're simply choose to ignore/deny that Islamic religious doctrine is at the heart of the violence = Islamic Apologist. Well, which is it?

We should move the Islam debate to this other thread --> Link (What life would be like if the majority of people where atheists)
I've highlighted some posts for you:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057591631-post273.html (What life would be like if the majority of people where atheists)
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057589682-post254.html (What life would be like if the majority of people where atheists)
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057590001-post258.html (What life would be like if the majority of people where atheists)

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Since you didn't care to address the points of my last post I'll start again with the point I wished to debate:

Conflicts between some religions are ultimately unavoidable because of "faith". These differences eventuate into conflict; secularism offers a solution; secularism offers peace for compromise.

The problem is self righteous religious nuts (such as yourself?) think you have the answer to the world's problems with your religion. Yet, when the flaws of these beliefs are shown the stubbornness, arrogance, and pride trump all reason and logic. One such flaw is the problem of FAITH. FAITH is the acknowledgment that ones belief's are unprovable in a universal manner. If you could prove your religion was true objectively and universally there would be no need for faith... period. However, because not one religion in the history of humanity is universally provable none can truly claim truth without first requiring "provisional consent" to some set of unprovable presuppositions. This is the root of conflict because if one group of people has "faith" in a particular set of presuppositions and another has faith in a different set of presuppositions then the morality and ethics of the two has potential to conflict. Secularism offers a solution to this conundrum. Secularism offers an objective compromise for any faith and any religion with a universal methodology.