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There's no such thing as "Separation of Church and State"

I'm with you up to your last sentence. There was no intention of keeping government from being "religious" or having religion. In fact it would really be a good thing if our govenmental representatives had more religion. Maybe there would be a lot less lying and under handed policy making. The protection is for citizens against government, not a prohibition of religion in government. The ACLU has falsely siezed on something Jefferson wrote in a letter to a group of Baptists seeking to allay their fears of the government getting involved in their religious practices. Being word twisting barristers, (bastards?) they found Jefferson's phrase about a "wall" separating the government from people's religion and have tried to make it part of the constitution, which it of course is not. If there's any separation of church and state, it's a one-way door keeping "state" out of "Church" and not the other way around.

Actually it is more approproiate to say that the bill of rights are restrictions that were placed on the government. Not that they were protections for the citizens against the government. I know it is a fine line but the distinction should be noted because it is important in this case. Anyways, because of this any benefit that the people get from those restrictions are more along the lines of a side benefit and not a direct benefit.

Now since the restrictions are placed on the government they cannot do anything that would go against those restrictions. This would, of necessity, include not having religion in the government. Because if religion is in the government then that religion will be reflected in the laws and decisions passed by the state. Your own post shows this to be true. You said..

In fact it would really be a good thing if our govenmental representatives had more religion. Maybe there would be a lot less lying and under handed policy making.

If our representatives lied less and used less underhanded policies because of religion then why would they also not pass laws based on religion?
 
Hmm, then I guess the DoI shows the intent of a Constitution that was written.

As the DoI was written prior to the Constitution... nope. However if you look through it there are parts of the DoI which is reflected in the Constitution. For example: "That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." This is reflected through out the Constitution.
 
I don't even know where to begin...hmmm....

How 'bout all those Supreme Court rulings?

Or Thomas Jefferson assuring us that our country is intended to have separation of church and state?
 
As the DoI was written prior to the Constitution... nope. However if you look through it there are parts of the DoI which is reflected in the Constitution. For example: "That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." This is reflected through out the Constitution.

Prior has nothing to do with it. The principals remained the same throughout this period. The same major players were involved thoughout this time.
 
I don't even know where to begin...hmmm....

How 'bout all those Supreme Court rulings?

Or Thomas Jefferson assuring us that our country is intended to have separation of church and state?
No doubt Jefferson would prefer prayer at graduation ceremonies be shut down by the state. :roll:
 
No doubt Jefferson would prefer prayer at graduation ceremonies be shut down by the state. :roll:

Or, would the government shutting down prayer at graduation ceremonies be a violation of the separation of church and state in itself? Wouldn't that be limiting the free exercise of religion?
 
Or, would the government shutting down prayer at graduation ceremonies be a violation of the separation of church and state in itself? Wouldn't that be limiting the free exercise of religion?

What about freedom of speech
 
I don't even know where to begin...hmmm....

How 'bout all those Supreme Court rulings?

Or Thomas Jefferson assuring us that our country is intended to have separation of church and state?

Do Supreme Court rulings change the meaning of the Constitution?
 
Yet the same people are against adopting Sharia Law...

Religion controlling the country is ok, as long as it's the right religion?

No no no. Do you even know what Sharia law is? If the US adopted Sharia law, we'd have to change our entire court system. We'd have to ban homosexuality and impose a death penalty. We'd have to require women to wear head covers. We'd have to change all our marriage laws. And, we'd have to do all this for one group of people that have self declared themselves to be under Sharia law.

Sharia law is a set of laws all of its own. We, as a society, can not have two sets of laws that are binding. We can not have two sets of standards.
 
I'm sure that if any of you arguing that church state separation doesn't exist would be pretty pissed if your kid came home saying that their teacher made them perform a Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu/Jewish/Any religion that you aren't. And American, seeing as he doubt Jesus's divinity and didn't have many religious beliefs, he probably would.
 
They change the interpretation of the Constitution, which is much the same.

So, what clause in the Constitution gives the Supreme Court the authority to change the meaning of the Constitution?
 
So, what clause in the Constitution gives the Supreme Court the authority to change the meaning of the Constitution?

How can you claim to know the constitution any better than the Supreme Court?
 
So, what clause in the Constitution gives the Supreme Court the authority to change the meaning of the Constitution?

Article 3 gives power to the supreme court, but the precedent to constitutionla interpretation was set in Marbury v. Madison, som it's really a self appointed power.
 
Article 3 gives power to the supreme court, but the precedent to constitutionla interpretation was set in Marbury v. Madison, som it's really a self appointed power.

And that is my point. The Supreme Court grabbed a bit of power by adjusting their responsibilities ever so slightly. Rather than judging as to whether a law fits within the Constitution, they judge whether the Constitution fits into the law. Effectively changing the Constitution while bypassing the amendment process.
 
Prior has nothing to do with it. The principals remained the same throughout this period. The same major players were involved thoughout this time.

What you are getting confused on here is the wordage. If A was done prior to B then that B can only reflect what was done prior to that B. This applies when A was written without the benefit of something else before A. B cannot come before A but A can come before B.

Now if you had said "Hmm, then I guess the Constitution shows the intent of the DoI that was written."

Instead of "Hmm, then I guess the DoI shows the intent of a Constitution that was written."

Then you would have been correct. The Constitution can show the intent of the DoI, but not the other way around. Because the DoI can be reflected in the Constitution but it cannot be the intent of the Constitution.
 
Under Article 3 of the Constitution, the Supreme Court powers are NOT to “Interpret” the Constitution, but to ENFORCE the Constitution.
 
The Constitution is the restraint that domesticated the federal government. Without that restraint, our federal government has reverted to a barbaric, natural state.
 
Under Article 3 of the Constitution, the Supreme Court powers are NOT to “Interpret” the Constitution, but to ENFORCE the Constitution.

You cannot enforce the Constitution without interpretation. Actually what they do is measure any law against the Constitution, and rule if the law is in compliance.

See Marbury Vs. Madison which was the landmark case establishing the role and power of the Supreme Court by "interpreting" the meaning of Article 3 - specifically the SC's jurisdiction.

Marbury vs Madison

"...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.

So if a law be in opposition to the constitution; if both the law and the constitution apply to a particular case, so that the court must either decide that case conformably to the law, disregarding the constitution; or conformably to the constitution, disregarding the law; the court must determine which of these conflicting rules governs the case. This is of the very essence of judicial duty.

If then the courts are to regard the constitution; and the constitution is superior to any ordinary act of the legislature; the constitution, and not such ordinary act, must govern the case to which they both apply.

Those then who controvert the principle that the constitution is to be considered, in court, as a paramount law, are reduced to the necessity of maintaining that courts must close their eyes on the constitution, and see only the law.

This doctrine would subvert the very foundation of all written constitutions. It would declare that an act, which, according to the principles and theory of our government, is entirely void; is yet, in practice, completely obligatory. It would declare, that if the legislature shall do what is expressly forbidden, such act, notwithstanding the express prohibition, is in reality effectual. It would be giving to the legislature a practical and real omnipotence, with the same breath which professes to restrict their powers within narrow limits. It is prescribing limits, and declaring that those limits may be passed at pleasure.

That it thus reduces to nothing what we have deemed the greatest improvement on political institutions -- a written constitution -- would of itself be sufficient, in America, where written constitutions have been viewed with so much reverence, for rejecting the construction. But the peculiar expressions of the constitution of the United States furnish additional arguments in favor of its rejection.

The judicial power of the United States is extended to all cases arising under the constitution. Could it be the intention of those who gave this power, to say that, in using it, the constitution should not be looked into? That a case arising under the constitution should be decided without examining the instrument under which it arises? This is too extravagant to be maintained.

In some cases then, the constitution must be looked into by the judges. And if they can open it at all, what part of it are they forbidden to read, or to obey? There are many other parts of the constitution which serve to illustrate this subject. It is declared that "no tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state." Suppose a duty on the export of cotton, of tobacco, or of flour; and a suit instituted to recover it. Ought judgment to be rendered in such a case? ought the judges to close their eyes on the constitution, and only see the law. The constitution declares that "no bill of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed."
If, however, such a bill should be passed and a person should be prosecuted under it; must the court condemn to death those victims whom the constitution endeavors to preserve?

Why otherwise does it direct the judges to take an oath to support it? This oath certainly applies, in an especial manner, to their conduct in their official character. How immoral to impose it on them, if they were to be used as the instruments, and the knowing instruments, for violating what they swear to support!

The oath of office, too, imposed by the legislature, is completely demonstrative of the legislative opinion on the subject. It is in these words, "I do solemnly swear that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich; and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge all the duties incumbent on me as according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the constitution, and laws of the United States."

Why does a judge swear to discharge his duties agreeably to the constitution of the United States, if that constitution forms no rule for his government? if it is closed upon him, and cannot be inspected by him?

If such be the real state of things, this is worse than solemn mockery. To prescribe, or to take this oath, becomes equally a crime.

Thus, the particular phraseology of the constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written constitutions, that a law repugnant to the constitution is void; and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument."
 
Anyone who says there is can shut me up by simply posting where it is in the constitution.


The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution.
Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This is what the constitution does say;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This provision was put into the constitution to protect people from governmental intervention in their religion or establishing a state religion. It was not meant to prevent government from having religion in it. So all you Sea Lawyers out there who keep flapping your gums about the Separation of Church and State are all full of crap.

its the same thing
 
its the same thing

No, it isn't. And that is the problem with the left and atheists. The People are allowed to practice their religion according to their consciences without infringing on the rights of others. Therefore since the People are the govt as well, they may choice to practice a religion within it. The only constraint is that there shall be no written law passed.
 
No, it isn't. And that is the problem with the left and atheists. The People are allowed to practice their religion according to their consciences without infringing on the rights of others. Therefore since the People are the govt as well, they may choice to practice a religion within it. The only constraint is that there shall be no written law passed.

no one is telling you that you cannot be in the government and practice religion, that is one of our core American values, you can believe whatever you want, which is why there is a seperation of church and state, so government can't tell you what to belive!!
 
Anyone who says there is can shut me up by simply posting where it is in the constitution.


The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution.
Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This is what the constitution does say;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

This provision was put into the constitution to protect people from governmental intervention in their religion or establishing a state religion. It was not meant to prevent government from having religion in it. So all you Sea Lawyers out there who keep flapping your gums about the Separation of Church and State are all full of crap.

Well neither do things like 'the lemon law' or 'reasonable standard' or 'strict scrutiny' - but they've all been devised and adopted by the Judicary, etc, to aid in them doing their jobs efficiently.
 
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