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Atheism is a religion [W:1586,2242]

FreedomFromAll said:
The Christians (and apparently and at least one agnostic) that assert that atheism is something more than what it is, do so to justify their beliefs about their god (or their logic). For the theist it is odd reasoning; they are trying to equate their beliefs as equal to what they think atheism believes (no proof just straight up beliefs). They are doing so not to prove anything about atheism but as a political move. To these theists (mostly Christian Conservatives) they believe that secularism is just atheism by a different name. So anything attributed to secularism is atheism to them. Add to that they believe that science equates atheism as well. So in their minds if evolution can be taught in public schools then they should get to preach in public schools as well. They use the same logic with public lands and the government. They are hoping to create a legal precedent that forces the end of separation of church and state, on the basis that atheism is a religion and has been in the government for a great deal of time. And they do so by dishonestly citing secularism and evolution. They also figure that such a direction is a win win since they believe that either they will be able to get Christianity into the government creating a religious power base, or at the very least end the teaching of evolution, get rid of securalism and so on.

Secularism is atheism - creation.com

Atheist vs Secular - Conservapedia
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I think not, Freedom, but I will acknowledge that the wording here is so convoluted I am not sure I understand why you were trying to say.

In any case, I, for one, have never suggested atheism is "something more than what it is." I think it is exactly what it is...a philosophical stance regarding the existence or non-existence of gods which includes people of greatly varied opinions.

Some (I think MANY) atheists threat their atheism as a belief system...and I have mentioned this. I suspect those atheists are the reason some people think it to be a religions...and feel comfortable suggesting that it is.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I think not, Freedom, but I will acknowledge that the wording here is so convoluted I am not sure I understand why you were trying to say.
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I am not sure what you do not think?
In any case, I, for one, have never suggested atheism is "something more than what it is." I think it is exactly what it is...a philosophical stance regarding the existence or non-existence of gods which includes people of greatly varied opinions.

Some (I think MANY) atheists threat their atheism as a belief system...and I have mentioned this. I suspect those atheists are the reason some people think it to be a religions...and feel comfortable suggesting that it is.
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Yes I am aware of your beliefs on the matter. You even accused me of being one of those atheists.

SO you believe that many (MOST) atheists treat atheism as a belief system. Duly noted thank you for your opinion.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
I am not sure what you do not think?
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My "I think not", Freedom, applies to all the post that was above it.

Yes I am aware of your beliefs on the matter.
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I do not do "believing"...so you cannot be aware of any in me.


You even accused me of being one of those atheists.
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I cannot imagine anyone thinking that thinking someone to be an atheists...is an accusation.

If I have mistaken you for an atheist...it certainly was not an accusation.

Nothing wrong with being an atheist that I can see.


SO you believe that many (MOST) atheists treat atheism as a belief system.
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No, I do not. I do not do believing.


Duly noted thank you for your opinion.
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No problem. In any case, I want to reiterate that I do not consider atheism to be a religion...for the various reasons I have already discussed.




Now I am done with you, no amount of baiting will make me respond to you in this thread. Goodbye.
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FreedomFromAll at #1762
 
Frank Apisa said:
My "I think not", Freedom, applies to all the post that was above it.
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Yeah I gathered that but just stating that you think not is irrelevant.

I do not do "believing"...so you cannot be aware of any in me.
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If thats what you want to believe who am I to care?


I cannot imagine anyone thinking that thinking someone to be an atheists...is an accusation.

If I have mistaken you for an atheist...it certainly was not an accusation.

Nothing wrong with being an atheist that I can see.
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You know what I meant; you are accusing most atheists of being just as illogical as theists. Which to most atheists is a insult.

No, I do not. I do not do believing.
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Obviously I cannot stop you from believing that you dont do any believing.


No problem. In any case, I want to reiterate that I do not consider atheism to be a religion...for the various reasons I have already discussed.
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That is a very empty jester considering that you think that most atheists treat atheism like a religion.

FreedomFromAll at #1762
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How long are you going to be doing this? If it makes you feel any better, yes I gave in to your baiting and I am ashamed about it. But enough of that BS, you can of course keep on about it, but this will be last that I talk to you about it. The choice is yours from here.


The bottom line here is that you are asserting that atheism is mostly like a religion in modern society. Yes you said that atheism isnt a religion blah blah blah, but you made it clear that you think most atheists treat atheism religiously. Your assertion is nothing but arguing semantics. You wont actually commit yourself to calling atheism as practiced by most atheists a religion since you know that argument would fail. So you have to state that you dont consider atheism a religion. But that doesnt stop you from saying that most atheists treat atheism like a religious belief. The obvious part of your argument though is the silly assertion that you do no believing at all on anything. That is a illogical artificial position that isnt fooling anyone, even when you use a different word in place of the words belief and believe. If you state the entire definition of belief and dont call it belief it just looks like you are trying to avoid something believing that a certain line of argument has been avoided. The same goes for calling atheism the definition of religious belief but then avoiding actually saying that it is a religion. It sounds like you believe that such juvenile tactics work but it only works in your head.

And no I wont "clean that up", such tactics dont actually gain any ground in a debate, but you do lose ground by avoiding intellectual challenges. Call me a fool but I am still hoping that you will turn off your dogma and exchange ideas in honest debate.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Yeah I gathered that but just stating that you think not is irrelevant.

If thats what you want to believe who am I to care?


You know what I meant; you are accusing most atheists of being just as illogical as theists. Which to most atheists is a insult.

Obviously I cannot stop you from believing that you dont do any believing.


That is a very empty jester considering that you think that most atheists treat atheism like a religion.

(snip)


The bottom line here is that you are asserting that atheism is mostly like a religion in modern society. Yes you said that atheism isnt a religion blah blah blah, but you made it clear that you think most atheists treat atheism religiously. Your assertion is nothing but arguing semantics. You wont actually commit yourself to calling atheism as practiced by most atheists a religion since you know that argument would fail. So you have to state that you dont consider atheism a religion. But that doesnt stop you from saying that most atheists treat atheism like a religious belief. The obvious part of your argument though is the silly assertion that you do no believing at all on anything. That is a illogical artificial position that isnt fooling anyone, even when you use a different word in place of the words belief and believe. If you state the entire definition of belief and dont call it belief it just looks like you are trying to avoid something believing that a certain line of argument has been avoided. The same goes for calling atheism the definition of religious belief but then avoiding actually saying that it is a religion. It sounds like you believe that such juvenile tactics work but it only works in your head.

And no I wont "clean that up", such tactics dont actually gain any ground in a debate, but you do lose ground by avoiding intellectual challenges. Call me a fool but I am still hoping that you will turn off your dogma and exchange ideas in honest debate.
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There is absolutely no way that atheism is a religion.

I suspect people who call it a religion do so, in part, because of atheists who treat their atheism like a belief system.

There is absolutely no way what I have said there is an empty jester...although I suspect there IS an empty jester in this conversation.



How long are you going to be doing this? If it makes you feel any better, yes I gave in to your baiting and I am ashamed about it. But enough of that BS, you can of course keep on about it, but this will be last that I talk to you about it. The choice is yours from here.
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Now I am done with you, no amount of baiting will make me respond to you in this thread. Goodbye.
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FreedomFromAll at #1762
 
Frank Apisa said:
Thank you for your reply, but I do not see what that has to do with the OP, Pinqy.

We've been instructed by a moderator to stick to that...and I intend to do so.
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I took the warning as being about insults and talking about each other and the stick to the OP meant not in the strictest sense because talking about side issues is always allowed.

I think anyone suggesting that atheism is a religion is way off base. Many atheists do treat their atheism about the way many theists treat their theism...but that simply does not make atheism a religion.
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I agree.
I would go along with "belief system" of some sort...and for many atheists...that would reasonably apply.
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I disagree. Atheism can mean simple lack of belief, so that infants could be rightly classified as atheists. In this sense, there certainly is no "system of belief." Or it can be a rejection of gods, which again, does not require a "system." There are some belief systems, such as secular humanism, communism, Confucianism, Taosm, most forms of Buddhism that are atheist belief systems and amount to religion equivalents, but not all atheist subscribe to one of those systems.
 
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pinqy said:
I took the warning as being about insults and talking about each other and the stick to the OP meant not in the strictest sense because talking about side issues is always allowed.
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I take the warning in a more literal way. I think if we want to pursue a sidebar for an extended time...the proper thing to do would be to start a new thread devoted to the specific of the sidebar.

I agree.
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Great.



I disagree. Atheism can mean simple lack of belief, so that infants could be rightly classified as atheists. In this sense, there certainly is no "system of belief." Or it can be a rejection of gods, which again, does not require a "system." There are some belief systems, such as secular humanism, communism, Confucianism, Taosm, most forms of Buddhism that are atheist belief systems and amount to religion equivalents, but not all atheist subscribe to one of those systems.
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Okay...we disagree. My statement "I would go along with "belief system" of some sort...and for many atheists...that would reasonably apply" captures exactly how I feel about it. At no point have I asserted "all"...but it is MY OPINION that "many" do.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Okay...we disagree. My statement "I would go along with "belief system" of some sort...and for many atheists...that would reasonably apply" captures exactly how I feel about it. At no point have I asserted "all"...but it is MY OPINION that "many" do.
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Could you elaborate some. I realize that you might not have anything specific in mind, I'm just curious as to the concept of atheism as a belief set by itself. I doubt this is true for you, but some others I have encountered who say that atheism is a belief system confuse it with belief systems that incorporate atheism. You're not broad brushing, but I would be interested if you can better articulate an atheist belief system.
 
pinqy said:
Could you elaborate some. I realize that you might not have anything specific in mind, I'm just curious as to the concept of atheism as a belief set by itself. I doubt this is true for you, but some others I have encountered who say that atheism is a belief system confuse it with belief systems that incorporate atheism. You're not broad brushing, but I would be interested if you can better articulate an atheist belief system.
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Sure.


When I use the term “belief system”, Pinqy, I am essentially saying a grouping of “beliefs” headed in the same direction. When I apply it to SOME atheists, I am referring to a grouping of "beliefs" that head in the direction of "there are no gods" or "It is more likely that there are no gods than that there are."

I certainly do not think every atheist engages in a belief system…but I think many do.

I think the “beliefs” some atheists use in the "grouping" to which I refer...are items such as:

“I believe it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are any gods.”

“I believe none of the “evidence” available for evaluation can be evidence of the existence of a god.”

“I believe that since there is no need for a god to explain anything…it is reasonable to assume there are no gods.”

“I believe that since people cannot produce a god for inspection (we cannot perceive a god with our senses)…it is reasonable to assume there are no gods.”

“I believe that since most religions that exist seem more likely to be a product of humans than of “revelation from on-high”…it is reasonable to assume there are no gods.”

I believe that since people who assert there is a god (or are gods) cannot PROVE there are gods…it is reasonable to assume there are no gods.”


When put together…it is what I call a “belief system.”

I could certainly create one for theism. It would be snap.

But this small sampling is why I say that FOR SOME atheists…their atheism is essentially a belief system.
 
http://www.vub.ac.be/CLEA/FOS/cfp/what-are-belief-systems.pdf

"Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves
to define our personal sense of Reality. Every human being has a belief system that
they utilize, and it is through this mechanism that we individually, "make sense" of the
world around us. "

It is irrelevant to point fingers at atheism and call it a belief system, as if that somehow equates atheism to theism.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
http://www.vub.ac.be/CLEA/FOS/cfp/what-are-belief-systems.pdf

"Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves
to define our personal sense of Reality. Every human being has a belief system that
they utilize, and it is through this mechanism that we individually, "make sense" of the
world around us. "

It is irrelevant to point fingers at atheism and call it a belief system, as if that somehow equates atheism to theism.
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Not to me it isn't.

Many atheists do engage in a belief system.

And atheism does in many ways equate to theism. In many respects, they are just two sides of a single coin.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
http://www.vub.ac.be/CLEA/FOS/cfp/what-are-belief-systems.pdf

"Belief systems are the stories we tell ourselves
to define our personal sense of Reality. Every human being has a belief system that
they utilize, and it is through this mechanism that we individually, "make sense" of the
world around us. "

It is irrelevant to point fingers at atheism and call it a belief system, as if that somehow equates atheism to theism.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what Frank is doing. There are some, though not many, atheists who do have their identities wrapped up in thier atheism and are as fanatically pro-atheism/anti/theist as the worst of the Spanish Inquisition (you weren't expecting that).

I disagree with Frank that he's describing a belief system though...He's just listing some common claims.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Not to me it isn't.

Many atheists do engage in a belief system.

And atheism does in many ways equate to theism. In many respects, they are just two sides of a single coin.
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ALL atheists, theists, agnostics; all humans engage in belief systems including you Frank. Unless you are a robot you cant help to have some type of belief system.

But engaging in a belief system doesnt make atheism a belief system anymore than it would be a religion. A person can treat atheism like a belief system and/or like a religion. The key being the word 'like' meaning in all or some appearance of comparison but not actually being a belief system or a religion.

Now you need to prove how atheism (in your opinion) equates theism. And you need to also prove what you mean by atheism and theism being two side to a single coin. Both assertions sound a bit fallacious and opinionated. Merely stating something isnt enough if you want to actually make a point. You need supporting logic and/or evidence.
 
pinqy said:
I don't think that's what Frank is doing. There are some, though not many, atheists who do have their identities wrapped up in thier atheism and are as fanatically pro-atheism/anti/theist as the worst of the Spanish Inquisition (you weren't expecting that).

I disagree with Frank that he's describing a belief system though...He's just listing some common claims.
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He confirmed it already...

Not to me it isn't.

Many atheists do engage in a belief system.

And atheism does in many ways equate to theism. In many respects, they are just two sides of a single coin.
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FreedomFromAll said:
He confirmed it already...
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No, there's a real difference between saying "atheism is a belief system" and "many atheists do engage in a belief system." I think he's correctly using his qualifiers. I still don't agree with the extent, but he is not claiming that atheism is a belief system.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
ALL atheists, theists, agnostics; all humans engage in belief systems including you Frank. Unless you are a robot you cant help to have some type of belief system.
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I do not do believing, Freedom. But have some respect for the monitor's admonition that we stick to the topic rather than talk about each other.


But engaging in a belief system doesnt make atheism a belief system anymore than it would be a religion. A person can treat atheism like a belief system and/or like a religion. The key being the word 'like' meaning in all or some appearance of comparison but not actually being a belief system or a religion.
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You are entitled to any opinions you have on this, Freedom, but it is my opinion that many atheist do treat their atheism as a belief system...and I think that is what leads some people to consider atheism a religion.

I, however, think there is no chance that atheism is a religion.



Now you need to prove how atheism (in your opinion) equates theism. And you need to also prove what you mean by atheism and theism being two side to a single coin. Both assertions sound a bit fallacious and opinionated. Merely stating something isnt enough if you want to actually make a point. You need supporting logic and/or evidence.
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I stand by what I have said so far...and the logic I used to arrive at it. If you disagree...I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
Nothing is impossible.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
What are you getting at?
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Well, I was seeing all this argument over the impossibility or possibility of impossible things being possible, so I decided to state my position on impossibility.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Except that which is impossible...like a square circle...or a round cube.
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Those are also possible, it's just that they're highly improbable or impossible within our current frame of reference.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Lol things can be impossible. :roll:
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Nope. Just highly improbable.


Heh.


Now, of course, there's alot of **** that's nigh-impossible. But personally, I figure there's a sliver of a chance, so I can't say "impossible".
 
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