45% Say Cancel Rest of Stimulus Spending

Dav · 06-10-09, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sazerac

Well this is why we watch the cable pundits. Who has time to keep up with everything in the news and form an opinion? Our news has to be analyzed for us by people who do have time.

BS. People only listen to analysis which they already agree with.

Orion · 06-11-09, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWizard12

Neither does that 36%, so what's your point other than to bash American intelligence?

It looks like I'm bashing American intelligence but I would say the same thing about any country. The vast majority are not involved too deeply in their country's economics or even know how the system works. I remember one time I was sitting in the living room with my family and tried to tell them about supply and demand. Their eyes just glazed over.

It's mostly propaganda and media that shapes people's opinions, not hard facts.

obvious Child · 06-11-09, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dav

Off by 12%.
Only 3 percent of stimulus spent so far | csmonitor.com

Your numbers are incorrect due to late timing. It's roughly 6% with an estimate of 11% to be done by the end of the year.

How Much of the Stimulus Money has Already Been Spent? : Rutledge Capital

Point is still the same: it's just as effective as the Bush 2001 tax cuts. Aka, super, duper, not effective.

Quote:

An incredibly elitist sentiment. For one thing, most Americans are educated and only need to be minimally informed to make a decision.

O'rly? Tell me, how many Americans do you know, know just where stem cells come from? How many do you know would state IVF clinics as the origin? How many do you know, know where those leftover embryos go? If Americans knew what was happening now, do you think so many would have voted against it on the bull**** reason the religious folk claim?

Furthermore, if Americans are so informed and educated (which by the way is incorrect if you look at percentage of population holding college degrees), then why do they keep voting their incumbents back into office when? We don't get the legislation we need for a reason. The US Congress is stale. Yet we do nothing about it. Informed you say?

Quote:

Anyways, without democracy, the government can do whatever the hell it wants and nobody can say otherwise; even if most people were stupid, and only a select few knew what was best for them, there would be no way to guarantee that that elite would always act in everyone's interest.

While that is true, it doesn't actually address what I was writing. We get bad government because we keep voting for it. If we had informed, educated voting populace, we wouldn't have this problem. But we don't.

Quote:

Plus, how would that elite come to power in the first place? Without democracy the only way to come to power would be through the use of power itself- which is blind to whether one is part of the elite or not.

Don't know. This discussion stems partly from my talk with Harry Guerrilla. He's very anti- listening to the majority for many of the reasons I stated.

Quote:

Yes, let's go back to the good old days when women and colored people knew their place. After all, they had poor or no education back then, why should they have been able to vote?

I never argued that was overall better. I argued that by historically, the limitation on voting to certain people mitigated the problems we have now, and specifically, if you noticed, I specifically wrote that having an informed, educated population would do much of the same.

My point is that a democracy of the uninformed and uneducated results in bad decisions. Democracy's value is determined by its voters. And America's voters suck. The fact that we still have a one party system pretending to be a two party system with that one party screwing every American is more evidence that we don't have that educated, informed voting population.

phattonez · 06-12-09, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obvious Child

The funny thing is that most economists are now saying that the recession is over and we're entering into a stage of jobless recovery that looks like a recession but has some expansion of the economy.

Well, that's pretty much meaningless. Most of the economists didn't see this coming.

Quote:

What does that tell us? During a crisis, fix the problem that caused the crisis and then stop.

But their solution has been what "caused the crisis," so they're really not fixing anything.

Dav · 06-12-09, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obvious Child

Your numbers are incorrect due to late timing. It's roughly 6% with an estimate of 11% to be done by the end of the year.

How Much of the Stimulus Money has Already Been Spent? : Rutledge Capital

Point is still the same: it's just as effective as the Bush 2001 tax cuts. Aka, super, duper, not effective.

Huh, I was actually under the impression that you supported the stimulus.

Quote:

O'rly? Tell me, how many Americans do you know, know just where stem cells come from? How many do you know would state IVF clinics as the origin? How many do you know, know where those leftover embryos go? If Americans knew what was happening now, do you think so many would have voted against it on the bull**** reason the religious folk claim?

Yes. The issue here is using aborted embryos for research, and people's opinion of the act isn't going to change based on how much they know about the actual process.

Quote:

Furthermore, if Americans are so informed and educated (which by the way is incorrect if you look at percentage of population holding college degrees),

Should holding a college degree really be a requirement for the ability to vote?

Quote:

then why do they keep voting their incumbents back into office when? We don't get the legislation we need for a reason. The US Congress is stale. Yet we do nothing about it. Informed you say?

This can be fixed with term limits. And no, I did not say "informed". I said that very little information is actually necessary. A person could know relatively little about a subject, form an opinion, learn lots and lots about the subject, and the chances are that person would still hold the same opinion.

Quote:

While that is true, it doesn't actually address what I was writing. We get bad government because we keep voting for it. If we had informed, educated voting populace, we wouldn't have this problem. But we don't.

I think it has more to do with the lack of good candidates on the market. Elections nowadays seem to be between a crook and another crook. I also think the partisan system has a lot to do with that... a nonpartisan primary system just may solve it.

Quote:

Don't know. This discussion stems partly from my talk with Harry Guerrilla. He's very anti- listening to the majority for many of the reasons I stated.

Listening to the majority is not always a good thing (see Nazi Germany). As Churchill said, Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. There is simply no effective way to date to decide who gets to govern other than letting the people decide.

Quote:

I never argued that was overall better. I argued that by historically, the limitation on voting to certain people mitigated the problems we have now, and specifically, if you noticed, I specifically wrote that having an informed, educated population would do much of the same.

My point is that a democracy of the uninformed and uneducated results in bad decisions. Democracy's value is determined by its voters. And America's voters suck. The fact that we still have a one party system pretending to be a two party system with that one party screwing every American is more evidence that we don't have that educated, informed voting population.

I think you're just being a pessimist; things really aren't that bad, and if they get that bad, voters will start pushing back.

I've heard that "one party" crud before and have never bought it.

Goldenboy219 · 06-12-09, 05:14 PM

I support a stimulus, not the "so called" stimulus package.

phattonez · 06-12-09, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboy219

I support a stimulus, not the "so called" stimulus package.

How would it be different for you?

And I'm still wondering how you're a libertarian. Haven't heard anything that isn't interventionist from you.

Smoke[MaxX] · 06-12-09, 06:43 PM

So... 55% want it to continue? Good thing we live in a democracy.

Ethereal · 06-12-09, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obvious Child

Your numbers are incorrect due to late timing. It's roughly 6% with an estimate of 11% to be done by the end of the year.

How Much of the Stimulus Money has Already Been Spent? : Rutledge Capital

Point is still the same: it's just as effective as the Bush 2001 tax cuts. Aka, super, duper, not effective.

O'rly? Tell me, how many Americans do you know, know just where stem cells come from? How many do you know would state IVF clinics as the origin? How many do you know, know where those leftover embryos go? If Americans knew what was happening now, do you think so many would have voted against it on the bull**** reason the religious folk claim?

Furthermore, if Americans are so informed and educated (which by the way is incorrect if you look at percentage of population holding college degrees), then why do they keep voting their incumbents back into office when? We don't get the legislation we need for a reason. The US Congress is stale. Yet we do nothing about it. Informed you say?

While that is true, it doesn't actually address what I was writing. We get bad government because we keep voting for it. If we had informed, educated voting populace, we wouldn't have this problem. But we don't.

Don't know. This discussion stems partly from my talk with Harry Guerrilla. He's very anti- listening to the majority for many of the reasons I stated.

I never argued that was overall better. I argued that by historically, the limitation on voting to certain people mitigated the problems we have now, and specifically, if you noticed, I specifically wrote that having an informed, educated population would do much of the same.

My point is that a democracy of the uninformed and uneducated results in bad decisions. Democracy's value is determined by its voters. And America's voters suck. The fact that we still have a one party system pretending to be a two party system with that one party screwing every American is more evidence that we don't have that educated, informed voting population.

Only net tax-payers and veterans should be allowed to vote. Net tax-consumers get to vote when they stop leaching off the system.

Dav · 06-12-09, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smoke[MaxX]

So... 55% want it to continue? Good thing we live in a democracy.

Did you even read the opening post

06-12-09, 05:14 PM	#16
Goldenboy219 Budtender Join Date: Jan 2006 Last Seen: Today 08:39 AM Location: Evansville Indiana Posts: 4,133 Thanks: 2,228 Thanked 787 Times in 568 Posts Lean: Libertarian Gender:	Re: 45% Say Cancel Rest of Stimulus Spending I support a stimulus, not the "so called" stimulus package.
	__________________ Be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the present. For in the present is where we shape our future.

06-12-09, 06:43 PM	#18
Smoke[MaxX] Advisor Join Date: Aug 2007 Last Seen: 11-30-09 03:11 PM Posts: 446 Thanks: 19 Thanked 92 Times in 66 Posts	Re: 45% Say Cancel Rest of Stimulus Spending So... 55% want it to continue? Good thing we live in a democracy.

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