Man accused of killing abortion doc says he's being 'treated like a criminal'

jallman · 06-05-09, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

If you say you don't like someone, list all the reasons, and proclaim that this person is a demon, a murder and monster, yes that insinuates that you think this person ought be killed.

Frank Schaeffer: How I (and Other "Pro-Life" Leaders) Contributed to Dr. Tiller's Murder
Doctor Was Target of O’Reilly’s Rhetoric - The Lede Blog - NYTimes.com

Well jfuh, as many times as I have openly made my case for why I think you are a despicable person, I would still be outraged if someone came along and murdered you. Stating you don't like someone and the reasons why does not translate in any way to "you should go kill them".

jfuh · 06-05-09, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Of course he was a last resort. That's certainly nothing to be proud of...that he would murder any baby no matter what.

"Tiller's Abortion Clinic...No Fetus Can Beat us!!!!"

Yeah...it would be nice to verify that she had no other choice, but you know...there's that corrupt government protection issue again. Damn, funny how that works out.

For someone that claims to be feverishly pro-choice, I'm not getting much of that from you. Seems your hatred for me trumps any position you hold.
But anyway, yes, let's forget about doctor patient confidentiality because you have issue with it for the purpose of sensationalism.
Let me know when you're done ranting and are capable of a serious argument.

jallman · 06-05-09, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

I have no evidence nor claim of that.
My only judgement was based on the fact of what I have seen of Tiller's clinic, it's not exactly state of the art in contrast to the clinics of various other physicians who do make it by very well.
What evidence do you have that he "rolled in dough"?

Well he was a multimillionaire and his service was 5000-6000 USD a pop. He performed over 60,000 of them in his career, not to mention the other services he provided. As you said, his clinic wasn't exactly state of the art so he wasn't dumping the money back into it. Of course, it doesn't really take a lot of high tech equipment to crush a baby skull, squirt it with drano, and rip the body out piece by piece so I can see why he didn't waste money on modern equipment.

jallman · 06-05-09, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

For someone that claims to be feverishly pro-choice, I'm not getting much of that from you. Seems your hatred for me trumps any position you hold.
But anyway, yes, let's forget about doctor patient confidentiality because you have issue with it for the purpose of sensationalism.
Let me know when you're done ranting and are capable of a serious argument.

Um, I was having a reasonable argument. And we already covered how doctor patient confidentiality isn't even at stake here. Redacted medical records are released all the time for statistical purposes. I see no reason why specific medical reasons for the abortions could not be listed along with doctor signatures.

And you know full well I am prochoice. I have stated many many times that I am against partial birth abortions, like many many prochoicers. This is basically another attempt by jfuh to obfuscate the issues by reframing the debate around your opponent rather than the issues being raised. Of your entire post, only one phrase was about the topic and the rest spoke only to vilifying and lying about me.

Why is that jfuh? Why can't you make the entire post about the topic and not about your opponent?

jfuh · 06-05-09, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Well jfuh, as many times as I have openly made my case for why I think you are a despicable person, I would still be outraged if someone came along and murdered you. Stating you don't like someone and the reasons why does not translate in any way to "you should go kill them".

I didn't say the two were equal or translatable, I said it contributes to the legitimization of the act. Particularily when it's not just you alone but a mob of individuals all demonizing/vilifying the same person. Equating them with mass murders like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Po Pot and co.
I've no issue with killing the likes of those because they are demons.
Dr. Tiller was no one of the sort, he did not commit any such attrocities, by no means a murder and by no means a psycopath that got his kicks out of a neccessary evil.
For if you are to demonize Dr. Tiller in this fashion, what then of the physicians that administer lethal injections for the death penalty? By that very same standard they too are murder's. Where is the outcry, where is the demonization and vilification? Why the double standard?

jallman · 06-05-09, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

I didn't say the two were equal or translatable, I said it contributes to the legitimization of the act. Particularily when it's not just you alone but a mob of individuals all demonizing/vilifying the same person. Equating them with mass murders like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Po Pot and co.
I've no issue with killing the likes of those because they are demons.
Dr. Tiller was no one of the sort, he did not commit any such attrocities, by no means a murder and by no means a psycopath that got his kicks out of a neccessary evil.
For if you are to demonize Dr. Tiller in this fashion, what then of the physicians that administer lethal injections for the death penalty? By that very same standard they too are murder's. Where is the outcry, where is the demonization and vilification? Why the double standard?

What double standard? Ohhhh, you mean why don't I hold lethal injections of murderers against the doctors who perform them as instruments of the state but show outrage over a physician who kills little babies in the womb to turn a profit? Do I really have to explain the difference?

jfuh · 06-05-09, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

Well he was a multimillionaire and his service was 5000-6000 USD a pop. He performed over 60,000 of them in his career, not to mention the other services he provided. As you said, his clinic wasn't exactly state of the art so he wasn't dumping the money back into it. Of course, it doesn't really take a lot of high tech equipment to crush a baby skull, squirt it with drano, and rip the body out piece by piece so I can see why he didn't waste money on modern equipment.

Other than you saying so, do you have factual evidence to support your claim?
60,000 over 30+ years, let's just say 60,000 over 30 that's 2000 per year which is ~ 6per day were he open every day of the year which translates into $30,000 per month and an annual income of no more than $360,000. Not exactly rolling in dough if it were his sole salary.
That is if he charged for every single one of his patients (which we know he did not).

By what you are going by alone, it would suggest he didn't pay utilities, he didn't pay wages, he didn't pay registration fees, sterilization fees or any form of maintainance fees. Sounds like a good bargain, how can I start a business that doesn't need to pay any of those fees?
I wouldn't exactly call a business that makes just $30,000 a year a large profitable operation.

jfuh · 06-05-09, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallman

What double standard? Ohhhh, you mean why don't I hold lethal injections of murderers against the doctors who perform them as instruments of the state but show outrage over a physician who kills little babies in the womb to turn a profit? Do I really have to explain the difference?

Killing is killing - be it by crushing one's skull, shooting a bullet through the skull, lethal injection or decapitation the result is all the same. The only variance is you can feel better about yourself when the day is done because of being less grotesque.
Do not the physicians who perform the lethal injections for the state turn a profit or just for free?

jallman · 06-05-09, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

Other than you saying so, do you have factual evidence to support your claim?
60,000 over 30+ years, let's just say 60,000 over 30 that's 2000 per year which is ~ 6per day were he open every day of the year which translates into $30,000 per month and an annual income of no more than $360,000. Not exactly rolling in dough if it were his sole salary.
That is if he charged for every single one of his patients (which we know he did not).

By what you are going by alone, it would suggest he didn't pay utilities, he didn't pay wages, he didn't pay registration fees, sterilization fees or any form of maintainance fees. Sounds like a good bargain, how can I start a business that doesn't need to pay any of those fees?
I wouldn't exactly call a business that makes just $30,000 a year a large profitable operation.

There's been no refutation that Tiller's clinic was profitable and that he made a very nice chunk of change performing abortions.

60,000 was the number of partial birth abortions that has been reported all over the news. I specifically said "in addition to other services". I notice how you gloss over pretty much everything said in an effort to use some very creative accounting to obfuscate the debate again with deception and lies. I also notice how you attempted to send me on a quote mining expedition in order to avoid the point of the argument. It's not going to work jfuh. Speak to the issues raised or don't. But do not keep attempting to make this about me or to cloud the issues with your fuzzy math.

jallman · 06-05-09, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfuh

Killing is killing - be it by crushing one's skull, shooting a bullet through the skull, lethal injection or decapitation the result is all the same. The only variance is you can feel better about yourself when the day is done because of being less grotesque.
Do not the physicians who perform the lethal injections for the state turn a profit or just for free?

No, all killing is not equal. You refuted the argument that all killing is equal when you argued that Tiller was innocent because the law said he was. Are you gonna backpedal now?

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