GottaHurt

They love you, the check is in the mail, and they won't....

Iran or bust there Billo, coming to a media outlet near you soon...

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Pain can be such a beautiful thing

Slainte

OK, I don't think anyone disputes that Iran is anti-zionist in the literal sense of the word and thus following on from the belief that Israel is an illegitimate country Iran says Israel will eventually be destroyed. What Iranian officials don't say is that "Iran is going to destroy Israel" in fact if you actually listen to them they tend to talk about a Palestinian/Arab/Islamic revolution(not neccesarily a violent one either) destroying Israel, and they definetly don't want it done with a nuke as that would have the side effect of destroying the Palestinians as well as Jerusalem.

So no I don't think Israel faces any direct existential threats from an Iranian nuke, what it would mean is that their military hegemony in the Middle East woud be over. This would probably be a bad thing from a Western perspective, although putting Israel on an equal footing with others in the Middle East could actually help the peace process - which would be good for the West. Although it would still be risky.

Firstly, I know it's hard for some Americans to grasp this, but the number one issue for the electorate in France and Germany isn't their relationship with the US!

Secondly what the EU wants is low energy prices, that requires Middle East stability which requires a resolution to the US-Iran crisis, preferably on American terms. What we don't want is a new war (and Europe definetly would not back any American attack) and we also don't want Iran getting pushed into Putin's arms as Iran and Russia could make energy prices in Europe very bad. So basically the smart thing to do IMO is back the US publicly keep reminding Iran that Israel IS there to stay, but tell the neocons in Washington that war is out of the question from a Europen persepctive, and offer some generous concessions to the Iranians if they start playing ball with everyone.

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We all live under the same sky, but we don't all have the same horizon

bhkad

In Europe before WWII, the Brits (and to a lesser degree the French and Americans and others) could say they appeased Hitler because they wanted peace so desperately and they didn't know he would lie and deceive them as to his real intentions. And as silly as that might seem today, a case could be made that they were unaccustomed to someone would tell the BIG lie to their face, as statesmen of that day prided themselves as being men of honor.

From the Wikipedia entry, "Causes of World War II."

Causes of World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, you don't even have to be as (im)perceptive as Chamberlain. Ahmadinejad has made NO SECRET of his intentions. He makes NO SECRET of his reverence of the memory and example of the Ayatollah Khomeini, his allegiance to Islam, Allah and the Koran. He makes NO SECRET of his desire to eliminate Israel. He makes NO SECRET of his intent to attain nuclear weapons. And, if war did not occur before then, a nuclear arms race would break out in the Middle East, making it more likely that through miscalculation, manipulation, handing it off to terrorist groups or some other intent or mistake that nuclear war would break out in the Middle East.

You see this as being somehow a better solution to the building crisis.

Here are some instructional quotes for you.

As far as our current situation in Iraq, consider this Winston Churchill quote:

"If you are going through hell, keep going."

And for some more things to think about as a prelude to embarking on a path of appeasement which would virtually guarantee war with Islam, and a much larger war than the one you currently imagine, please think about this Churchill quote:

"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half."

And if you are searching for a way to prevent future aggression by our enemies and would-be foes, compare this wisdom to what might be discerned from Ron Paul's ideology:

"If you rub it in, both at home and abroad, that you are ready for instant war, with every unit of your strength in the first line and waiting to be first in, and hit your enemy in the belly and kick him when he is down, and boil your prisoners in oil (if you take any), and torture his women and children, then people will keep clear of you."

--John Arbuthnot Fisher, British Admiral 1841-1920

Anyone who doubts the wisdom of this advice should turn the tables and they will soon realize that this is exactly the position the Iranians have taken with regard to US. They have some of us feeling desperate to steer clear of Iran.[/quote]

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But, when all is said and done, Senator McCain has not spent decades aiding and abetting people who hate America. http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell060508.php3

independent_thinker2002

I just crapped my pants. Happy? Keep up the fear mongering!

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GottaHurt

Yes, Israel is directly being threatened by Irans development of a nuclear warhead. They have the missiles to launch them, they just need the nuke now.

Obviously you skipped over the links I posted. We are presently selling Israel bunker busters. They're not aquiring them to stockpile, or as a "just in case" safeguard. Israel has already publically stated it will not stand by and watch.

I base things on past track records. Israel pretty much sticks to their word on things and I have no doubt they'll keep their word on this.

Whatever you say. The mere mention of us pulling our bases from Germany and establishing new ones further east made Germany rethink it's anti American policies. That's billions of dollars that the sh!thole German economy would lose. Germans know butter, germans know bread, and they definitely know which side theirs is buttered on.

The EU is weak, France is even weaker and couldn't afford anymore animosity from us, a huge consumer of their goods.

Precisely why we're there now. We are staying, despite what some people lie to the public about for political gain. I'll reiterate, we're staying.

Iran is already in Putins arms, Russia is supplying their nuke technology and I suspect is also refining their oil. Putin has his a$$ in a sling with us deploying our missile defense systems in eastern Europe. He's been window dressing his bomber missions trying to flex his muscles. Paint will hold that Soviet military junk together for only so long. Parts cost money and Putin is stretched thin even with vast oil reserves under his control.

Watch as Europe quietly stands by when the air campaign begins.

Now that's a Hollywood script in the making. Tell the neocons in Washington?

You need balls to give orders, liberals have none. GW has already decided that Iran will fall victim to an air campaign. It's not if, but when.

European perspective? France is licking it's chops knowing full well it'll be rewarded the communication contracts to restore Irans telecommunication infrastructure after we take it out. Bribery gets you everywhere. The Germermans (dead men don't wear plaid) won't be left out, they'll get the road and bridge contracts.

Concessions? We're dealing with radicals who live and die by the sword, an eye for an eye.

Do some research on them, study their pictures carefully. They'll soon be vapor.

Slainte

This doesn't mean they are a direct existential threat, several countries have nukes and the missles to hit Israel. You need to acually think that Iran would follow through which I don't believe for a second. One Iran would be completely obliterated by an Israeli-American couner-attack and I'm fairly sure the Iranians aren't about to be wiped out for a bunch of Arabs, and two it would destory the Palestinians and Jerusalem whih is who they are trying to "save"

They probably want them to use against Hezbollah positions on the their northern border. That way they won't be fought to a standstill by a thousand man guerilla army with nothing more sophisticated than Katyusha rockets again.

Time will tell, but these kind of predictions are pretty silly. Frankly I doubt Israel has the ability to cripple Iran's nuclear project.

Interesting claim. Can you name one anti-american policy that Germany has changed because America threatened to withdraw military bases.

I don't think Germany really has many anti-American policies. You shouldn't confuse smart policies such as staying as far away from Iraq as possible with anti-American policies.

The "sh!thole German economy"? The German economy remains one of the most resilient in the world, especially remarkable considering half the country was behind the iron curtain for 40 years. I think they could handle the loss of American bases, I doubt it would be cheap for America to move them though.

Are you just trying to act macho or do you really believe this? What animosity have you been giving us and how exactly would you increase it?

I don't think your continued presence in Iraq is helping your hand vis a vis Iran. You'd undoubtedly have a much stronger one if not for the invasion, I suspect part of the eventual resolution of the conflict will allow for a fairly large Iranian influence in parts of Iraq. Certainly if America is at all serious about "democratization" in Iraq it is inevitable that Iranian inflence will grow.

Well actually no, they are not. There is still considerable animosity between the two countries, partly historical, partly ideological and partly realpolitik.

Europe fears an Iranian-Russian Gas Cartel, like OPEC, this hasn't materialised yet and because of pipeline routes probably won't for a while. But we still don't want Iran and Russia getting too close.

A very vague claim considering a lot can be considered "nuclear technology". They were supposed to build Iran a nuclear reactor but are currently about 3 years behind a schedule, another thing the Iranians aren't happy with Russians about.

This is getting silly, why don't we just try and stick to the topic.

Yes, tell them no on in Europe wants any type of military confrontation with Iran and if America takes any action she does so 100% alone. Hopefully you guys will see sense.

This is very far beyond ridiculous, if bribery get you everywhere why aren't Total and Schlumberger in Iraq right now next to 10 000 French troops?

Iran is a rapidly industrialising country of 70 million people on top of some of the greatest natural resouces on the planet. The revolution was a long time ago and anyone who has actually been to Iran will tell you it's changed beyond recognition. They are a country who should be respected, America treating them like 10th century barabarions is going to end in disaster for the whole world.

Bergslagstroll

Yep, that people have to realise that the Islamic's in Iran want to create a "heaven" on the earth, not create an apocalypse and besides that their are moderates in Iran too. So even if a nuclear Iran is not excactly the best thing to happen it's not as a big threath as some people state. Because yes it would be very unlikely that Iran would dare nuke Israel, because both Israel and USA has nukes and would use them against Iran.

Also you have to realise that Iran has all the motives in the world to get nukes right now. That the Iraq war has shown that USA is a big threath and can unliteral atack anyone they like. This at the same USA is not a threath right now because they are to busy in Iraq. This at the same time the world is despretly dependent on oil, so someone will always be willing to trade with Iran.

Billo_Really

This analogy really sucks the big one!

Re-post it when Iran invades Poland!

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"With neocons, it just goes to show, when the
bar is low enough, you can never be too wrong!"

Billo_Really

You watch too much TV.

We attack Iran, that will start a series of events in motion that will eventually lead to a full nuclear strike from Russia AND China against the United States.

Do you want that?

GottaHurt

Yea those 4 NFL games I catch every Sunday and the occasional Monday night one has me seeking counselling.

Yep, and then Superman will come out of nowhere and save us, we'll all find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, Hillary will become president...