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Iran 'to release British sailors'

Why is Iran releasing the captured UK soldiers they claimed would be brough to trial?

  • Because the UK wanted them to.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Because of UK pressure.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Because Europe together demanded so.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Because the UK demanded so and the EU was behind the UK.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Because of Iran is playing a twisted game.

    Votes: 7 46.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15
It is a victory for Iran in that it now becomes much more difficult to wage war against Iran. There's no immediate pretext, and they've shown that they will respond to diplomacy. Any new pretext, especially where it cannot be absolutely proven that Iran was involved, will generate skepticism in light of these events as well. The thinking will go "Hey, they let those sailors go and they treated them well; ergo, they don't seem like the kind of people to have just sunk that carrier."

Note that by this last remark I in no way mean to imply that Iran is behind any recent acts of terrorism. They may be, they may not be. However, whether they do something stupid, or we run a false-flag operation to make it seem like they did, their actions now will generate skepticism for later.

That Ahmadinejad is one smart cookie.
 
I can't see how this is a victory for Iran. We got our soldiers back, they got...nothing.

It's a victory for Iran because it makes the West look impotent and makes Iran look peace loving. And what they got was confessions, apologies, and political propaganda, not to mention, that it once again diverted the worlds attention from their nuclear proliferation projects.
 
It is a victory for Iran in that it now becomes much more difficult to wage war against Iran. There's no immediate pretext, and they've shown that they will respond to diplomacy. Any new pretext, especially where it cannot be absolutely proven that Iran was involved, will generate skepticism in light of these events as well. The thinking will go "Hey, they let those sailors go and they treated them well; ergo, they don't seem like the kind of people to have just sunk that carrier."

Note that by this last remark I in no way mean to imply that Iran is behind any recent acts of terrorism. They may be, they may not be. However, whether they do something stupid, or we run a false-flag operation to make it seem like they did, their actions now will generate skepticism for later.

That Ahmadinejad is one smart cookie.

Actually if one wasn't so naive they would look at any suspected Iranian involvement in an act of terrorism and say: "well they have been taking hostages recently." Who cares if they released them? The bottom line is that they violated international law on several levels by taking and parading them on t.v. in the first place.
 
It is a victory for Iran in that it now becomes much more difficult to wage war against Iran. There's no immediate pretext, and they've shown that they will respond to diplomacy. Any new pretext, especially where it cannot be absolutely proven that Iran was involved, will generate skepticism in light of these events as well. The thinking will go "Hey, they let those sailors go and they treated them well; ergo, they don't seem like the kind of people to have just sunk that carrier."

Note that by this last remark I in no way mean to imply that Iran is behind any recent acts of terrorism. They may be, they may not be. However, whether they do something stupid, or we run a false-flag operation to make it seem like they did, their actions now will generate skepticism for later.

That Ahmadinejad is one smart cookie.

Agreed with all of your points save one: "they've shown that they will respond to diplomacy." They have demonstrated support for all of your other points, "responding to diplomacy" does not necessarily follow.

But, where was the Iranian apology for violating the various GC rules? They are, after all, signatories to the GC, and the world saw their violation of several of those articles.

It was, as you suggest, a very smart operation on their part.
 
It's a victory for Iran because it makes the West look impotent and makes Iran look peace loving. And what they got was confessions, apologies, and political propaganda, not to mention, that it once again diverted the worlds attention from their nuclear proliferation projects.

Look impotent how? By talking, instead of threatening. Rattling your sabre every time Iran farts isn't going to do anything. This action is very significant because Iran and their little President, stepped down the confrontation. They wanted this to be done by diplomatic methods. Most noticeably their little President calmed down the tone in the last few days. Has US threats managed to do that?

Confessions? Apologies? Our soldiers will probably take it all back and say what they really feel on the matter. Who knows maybe they actually were in Iranian waters?? I personally don't think so, but what do I know?

I think that this whole thing was to divert attention from their nuclear projects. I have to agree that Ahmadinejad is one smart cookie.
Our way was the only way this could be done without making a further mess of things.
 
Look impotent how?

Will Iran be punished in any way, shape, or form for their clear cut violations of international law and the G.C.?

By talking, instead of threatening. Rattling your sabre every time Iran farts isn't going to do anything. This action is very significant because Iran and their little President, stepped down the confrontation. They wanted this to be done by diplomatic methods. Most noticeably their little President calmed down the tone in the last few days.

Yes I know it was a diplomatic coup for Ahmadinejad, through an act of war he has simultaneously made Iran look peace loving and the West look impotent.

Has US threats managed to do that?

I'm sure our carriers in the Persian Gulf did far more than talking it out with Ahmadinejad.

Confessions? Apologies? Our soldiers will probably take it all back and say what they really feel on the matter. Who knows maybe they actually were in Iranian waters?? I personally don't think so, but what do I know?

I think that this whole thing was to divert attention from their nuclear projects. I have to agree that Ahmadinejad is one smart cookie.
Our way was the only way this could be done without making a further mess of things.

You're right on one thing this situation was used to divert attention from their nuclear program but it has also proven that Iran can flagrantly violate international law and the will of the international community without consequence.
 
Will Iran be punished in any way, shape, or form for their clear cut violations of international law and the G.C.?

Violation of what international laws? And the Geneva Convention only applies to countries at war no? Last I heard the UK and Iran were not at war.

And if you want to use the above measures.. how about Iranian diplomats held by US forces? Or alleged attempt to kidnap Iranian commanders? Or the kidnapping of various people of the streets of various countries around the world? There is enough BS to throw around.

Yes I know it was a diplomatic coup for Ahmadinejad, through an act of war he has simultaneously made Iran look peace loving and the West look impotent.

What act of war? Not a shot was fired, and the issue of what part of the gulf they were in is still up for debate. And all experts that are not on Fox News, basicly agree that it was not Ahmadinejad that "won" the internal battle in Iran over this..

I'm sure our carriers in the Persian Gulf did far more than talking it out with Ahmadinejad.

Ahh the sitting ducks in the gulf you mean?

You're right on one thing this situation was used to divert attention from their nuclear program but it has also proven that Iran can flagrantly violate international law and the will of the international community without consequence.

Much like the US and other countries you mean?

Personally I am just glad the sailors are home and its over. One thing is for sure, I am glad it was British troops that were involved, else we would probally be running for iodine pills right about now to ward off radidation sickness.
 
Violation of what international laws?

Coming into Iraqi territorial waters and taking U.K. sailors hostage.

And the Geneva Convention only applies to countries at war no? Last I heard the UK and Iran were not at war.

I believe it applies to any soldiers taken captive regardless if the nations are at war. Are you asserting that the G.C. doesn't apply if the nation which takes prisoners is not at war with the citizens whom they captured's coutnry? That's certainly not been the argument of the left for the last 6 years in relation to Gitmo detainees.

And if you want to use the above measures.. how about Iranian diplomats held by US forces?

"Diplomats," what like the leader of the Al-Quds division who was captured in Iraq aiding the insurgency?

Or alleged attempt to kidnap Iranian commanders?

Key word "alleged," alleged by whom? The Iranians of course, and just what were Iranian intel operatives doing in Iraq in the first place?

Or the kidnapping of various people of the streets of various countries around the world?

Umm you mean terrorists?

There is enough BS to throw around.

You certainly know about BS.

What act of war?

Taking U.K. sailors hostage in Iraqi waters in an act of war on the part of Iran.

Not a shot was fired, and the issue of what part of the gulf they were in is still up for debate.

No it's not you are a lier, the GPS comfirms beyond doubt that they were in Iraqi waters.
And all experts that are not on Fox News, basicly agree that it was not Ahmadinejad that "won" the internal battle in Iran over this..


Ahh the sitting ducks in the gulf you mean?

No I was referring to the most deadly fighting vehicles ever constructed by man.

Much like the US and other countries you mean?

What international laws has the U.S. broken?

Personally I am just glad the sailors are home and its over. One thing is for sure, I am glad it was British troops that were involved, else we would probally be running for iodine pills right about now to ward off radidation sickness.

Pure sophistry. We simply would have blockaded refined oil from entering their country and taken out their soul refinery.
 
Ahh the sitting ducks in the gulf you mean?

Yeah, the ones that have lethal flees that'll kill you before you can even see those 'sitting ducks'
:roll:
 
Yes I know it was a diplomatic coup for Ahmadinejad, through an act of war he has simultaneously made Iran look peace loving and the West look impotent.

That is absurd. If the situation had been reversed and the UK had arrested Iranian soldiers, and then released them without getting anything in return, what would you be saying about it? That Tony Blair made the UK look peace-loving and Iran look impotent? HELL NO. You'd be spinning it as a major defeat for the West and you'd be comparing Tony Blair to Neville Chamberlain, which would probably be accurate. Similarly, this was a major diplomatic defeat for Iran. You just can't accept the fact that anything can ever be accomplished without bombs or threats of bombs, so you have to deny the most basic facts of reality to fit your discredited worldview.
 
You know, most of the time, your posts are reasonably intelligent, even those with which I disagree. But this one really shows a lack of knowledge on the specifics of your assertions. It is simply an uninformed rant. You can, and have, done better.

I dont really know anything about the Geneva convention, just the very basics, but I know the US dont care much about it, especially with the torture clauses and Guantanamo Bay.
 
I dont really know anything about the Geneva convention, just the very basics, but I know the US dont care much about it, especially with the torture clauses and Guantanamo Bay.

Can you prove that? You sound very much as if you are merely repeating the mantra of US critics without having done your own homework on the situation and decided for yourself, which your admission that you don't know much about the GCs strongly suggest. As I said, you have often done better in supporting your assertions. If I'm wrong and you have done your homework,and arrived at your conclusions thusly and are not merely repeating assertions because they are conveniently anti-American, then I apologize in advance -- but thats not the impression you give.
 
I dont really know anything about the Geneva convention, just the very basics, but I know the US dont care much about it, especially with the torture clauses and Guantanamo Bay.

Technically those in Guantanamo aren't held to the GC because they aren't proper soldiers. But it's nice to know that you'll admit knowing nothing about a subject, but using that subject to condemn America. Shows that you're really not fighting ignorance, but rather just bitchin' about America.
 
OldReliable said:
Agreed with all of your points save one: "they've shown that they will respond to diplomacy." They have demonstrated support for all of your other points, "responding to diplomacy" does not necessarily follow.

Well, keep in mind I'm talking about what perception will be, not what reality is.

The point is that they released the sailors without military action on Britain's part. Military action against them therefore becomes that much more difficult to justify.

OldReliable said:
But, where was the Iranian apology for violating the various GC rules? They are, after all, signatories to the GC, and the world saw their violation of several of those articles.

We (meaning, we here on these boards) don't know for certain that they violated GC rules. In the absence of certainty, I'm witholding judgement and looking at the realpolitik involved.

I think it's very easy to accuse someone we identify as "other" while simultaneously downplaying accusations leveled at those we identify as "us." It's much more difficult to listen objectively to two sides of a conflict.

My opinion is that the Iranians were in the wrong at least to have held the sailors as long as they did; I don't think that's justifiable even had those sailors been in their waters (unless there was good evidence of espionage). If the Iranians believed they were in Iranian waters, I could see holding and interrogating them for a few days before releasing them. We'd do the same. We might or might not treat them as well as the Iranians treated the british captives. We might or might not have forced confessions from them (just as the Iranians might or might not have done here--though I suspect they did).

The British sailors may or may not have been in Iranian waters--I suspect that at least by British reckoning, they weren't. I also suspect that we are aware, and Britain is aware, that those borders are disputed, and it's quite easy in such situations to provoke a cassus belli such that both sides feel justified in engaging in conflict. And I also suspect, but cannot prove, that this is exactly what was going on here. Again, I would bet long odds that something came up in the middle of this whole deal, something held by a foreign country with an interest in de-escalation, that kept it from escalating.

However, I wouldn't put it past Ahmadinejad to have played a very shrewd move here. In any form of conflict (I learned the strategy from playing chess), if your opponent has a winning attack, it is possible to weaken that attack or even defuse it altogether by making it happen faster than your opponent had planned. Critical pieces get left out and your opponent's position is weakened, leaving you either a counter-attack or an escape that your opponent didn't have time to block off.

I think in this case there's a pretty obvious factor of time involved in attacking Iran. We know their strategy will be to shut down the straits of Hormuz and effectively block about half of all OPEC production, which would make very unpleasant times for the world. Part of our strategy for softening the blow is to increase the SPR to one billion barrels. That plus existing inventories should buy us roughly 100 days to get the straits open and knock out Iran's ability to re-block it--a task our navy is at least potentially capable of doing. However, we haven't even re-filled it from the Katrina draw-down; and we won't be able to until later this year.

Another Iranian strategy in any potential conflict will be to foment increased insurgency in Iraq and Afganistan. We're in the process of stationing more troops there to not only support ground operations inside Iran, but to prevent this counter-thrust. We don't have all the necessary troops in place yet.

Iran is aware of both of these facts (I can find them out on the internet, after all).

We couldn't wait until all that was in place to start shopping for a pretext, though, as that would be too transparent--we have to plausibly deflect Russian and Chinese criticism and possible involvement. So Britain operates in disputed waters, certain that American carrier groups in the gulf are deterent enough to prevent any really iffy action on Iran's part. They do so with confidence that we will be able to pick the time for provoking a pretext. But Iran seizes an opportunity to accelerate our winning attack, fizzling it out before key preparations are made. To get an attack on Iran, we need to paint them as defiant and aggressive, unwilling to listen to reason. The fact remains that this now becomes much more difficult to do.
 
We (meaning, we here on these boards) don't know for certain that they violated GC rules. In the absence of certainty, I'm witholding judgement and looking at the realpolitik involved.

Unless I have misread them, the parading of captives publicly is clearly a violation of the GC.

I think it's very easy to accuse someone we identify as "other" while simultaneously downplaying accusations leveled at those we identify as "us." It's much more difficult to listen objectively to two sides of a conflict.

Quite true.

We might or might not treat them as well as the Iranians treated the british captives. We might or might not have forced confessions from them (just as the Iranians might or might not have done here--though I suspect they did).

Reports from the debriefing are now beginning to come out. They will make for interesting reading.

However, I wouldn't put it past Ahmadinejad to have played a very shrewd move here.

No doubt about that. He is, as someone wrote here at DP, a sharp cookie.

I think in this case there's a pretty obvious factor of time involved in attacking Iran. We know their strategy will be to shut down the straits of Hormuz and effectively block about half of all OPEC production, which would make very unpleasant times for the world. Part of our strategy for softening the blow is to increase the SPR to one billion barrels. That plus existing inventories should buy us roughly 100 days to get the straits open and knock out Iran's ability to re-block it--a task our navy is at least potentially capable of doing. However, we haven't even re-filled it from the Katrina draw-down; and we won't be able to until later this year.

Another Iranian strategy in any potential conflict will be to foment increased insurgency in Iraq and Afganistan. We're in the process of stationing more troops there to not only support ground operations inside Iran, but to prevent this counter-thrust. We don't have all the necessary troops in place yet.

Iran is aware of both of these facts (I can find them out on the internet, after all).

We couldn't wait until all that was in place to start shopping for a pretext, though, as that would be too transparent--we have to plausibly deflect Russian and Chinese criticism and possible involvement. So Britain operates in disputed waters, certain that American carrier groups in the gulf are deterent enough to prevent any really iffy action on Iran's part. They do so with confidence that we will be able to pick the time for provoking a pretext. But Iran seizes an opportunity to accelerate our winning attack, fizzling it out before key preparations are made. To get an attack on Iran, we need to paint them as defiant and aggressive, unwilling to listen to reason. The fact remains that this now becomes much more difficult to do.

Whew! Thats all way too double-think and convoluted for my simple mind! Though, IIRC,and I'll have to check back and see if my memory is correct, Russia and China have been much more in sympathy with the US and EU positions re: Iran in recent weeks. That is relatively speaking, of course.
 
Technically those in Guantanamo aren't held to the GC because they aren't proper soldiers. But it's nice to know that you'll admit knowing nothing about a subject, but using that subject to condemn America. Shows that you're really not fighting ignorance, but rather just bitchin' about America.

Ahh, silly me for mixing the Geneva convention with human rights.. I wasnt talking about the GC at all really, but human rights, thats what the US dont care about. The geneva convention, hmm, the US probably care a little about that.
 
Can you prove that? You sound very much as if you are merely repeating the mantra of US critics without having done your own homework on the situation and decided for yourself, which your admission that you don't know much about the GCs strongly suggest. As I said, you have often done better in supporting your assertions. If I'm wrong and you have done your homework,and arrived at your conclusions thusly and are not merely repeating assertions because they are conveniently anti-American, then I apologize in advance -- but thats not the impression you give.

Sorry, I was mixing the Geneva convention and human rights..
 
Ahh, silly me for mixing the Geneva convention with human rights.. I wasnt talking about the GC at all really, but human rights, thats what the US dont care about. The geneva convention, hmm, the US probably care a little about that.

A European questioning our understanding of human rights. :rofl
 
Ahh, silly me for mixing the Geneva convention with human rights.. I wasnt talking about the GC at all really, but human rights, thats what the US dont care about. The geneva convention, hmm, the US probably care a little about that.

Got documentation for that? What about your precious China you defend all the time? They must certainly have a great humans right track record....right?
 
Got documentation for that? What about your precious China you defend all the time? They must certainly have a great humans right track record....right?

I dont defend China all the time, thats ridiculous. China also needs to live by the human rights.
 
I don't think the majority of you live in countries which allow it citizens to have guns. UK is currently one of the most Big Brother sorts of government with cameras everywhere, also they have to get permits from their government to protest. I don't think y'all have all of our individual rights recognized.
 
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