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Iraqis: life is getting better

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MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.

The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.

One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.

Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month.






Iraqis: life is getting better-News-World-Iraq-TimesOnline
 
Well, I have been trying to tell me people here that "Civil War" is not a very accurate word. It's a political term spurred on by the media and our intelligencia has chosen the safe path in its reports.

But what's going on inside Iraq today is a direct result of OSD negligence and arrogance...NOT removing their brutal dictator. Unfortunately, the population of Iraq is showing us what we always knew. The Middle Eastern culture is so ravaged and the religion is in such termoil, that hundreds of thousands have fallen victim. They must see this through and emerge all the more healthier without a dictator.

A united Iraq, where the basic human rights of Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurds defend free will-as they would define it, is exactly what the Middle East needs. After four hundred years of consistent Arab failure, the Middle East needs a success story that doesn't involve a dictator's tyranny or Arab oppression.

And they know it.

But to be fair, other polls will contain different results.
 
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MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.

The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.

One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.

Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month.






Iraqis: life is getting better-News-World-Iraq-TimesOnline

Here's another up to date poll :-

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Pessimism 'growing among Iraqis'

Important points :-

1) Less than 40% of those polled said things were good in their lives, compared to 71% two years ago.

This would suggest things are not 'getting better'

2) Only 18% said they had confidence in US and coalition troops, and 51% said they thought attacks on coalition forces were justified.

We are there to 'help them' yet 50% of the nation thinks its acceptable and justified to kill our troops.

3) However, only 35% said foreign troops should leave Iraq now. A further 63% said they should go only after security has improved.

They want us to stay till security is better but they think its ok to kill our troops whilst they remain at their bequest.

4) And just 38% said the situation in the country was better than before the 2003 war, while 50% said it was worse.

How dire must it be when times were better under Saddam?

On a positive note :-

5) But despite their differences, 58% overall said they wanted Iraq to remain a unified country. Almost all said they did not want Iraqi to be broken up along sectarian lines.

More than 2,000 people took part in the BBC/ABC News poll.
 
Well, I have been trying to tell me people here that "Civil War" is not a very accurate word. It's a political term spurred on by the media and our intelligencia has chosen the safe path in its reports.

But what's going on inside Iraq today is a direct result of OSD negligence and arrogance...NOT removing their brutal dictator. Unfortunately, the population of Iraq is showing us what we always knew. The Middle Eastern culture is so ravaged and the religion is in such termoil, that hundreds of thousands have fallen victim. They must see this through and emerge all the more healthier without a dictator.

A united Iraq, where the basic human rights of Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurds defend free will-as they would define it, is exactly what the Middle East needs. After four hundred years of consistent Arab failure, the Middle East needs a success story that doesn't involve a dictator's tyranny or Arab oppression.

And they know it.

But to be fair, other polls will contain different results.

Do you believe it all depends on which regions are being polled?
 
A united Iraq, where the basic human rights of Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurds defend free will-as they would define it, is exactly what the Middle East needs.

Why a united Iraq? That's not a nation! The kurds from Iran, Iraq and Turkey want a Kurdistan! The Sunni and Shi'ites dislike each others! Wouldn't it be more logic, in the long term, to split up Iraq?

After four hundred years of consistent Arab failure, the Middle East needs a success story that doesn't involve a dictator's tyranny or Arab oppression.

'til 1918 they were a part of the Ottoman Empire (Ottomans are not Arab). Then a British colony. Then under Saddam's dictature. Arab people there have never been sovereign for a long time. So it is very inaccurate to say "400 years of consistent Arab failure".
 
Do you believe it all depends on which regions are being polled?

Definately. A poll inside the Sunni triangle, especially in the Baghdad/Fallujah region, will be Sunni intensive. The north will be Kurdish and the South will be Shia. All three will give us different looking results.
 
Why a united Iraq? That's not a nation! The kurds from Iran, Iraq and Turkey want a Kurdistan! The Sunni and Shi'ites dislike each others! Wouldn't it be more logic, in the long term, to split up Iraq?

Yes and no. But it would also be less safe for the whole. If they can manage to show a unified Muslim nation where Sunni and Shi'ite live and prosper together, it will go a long way for the Middle East and it will combat this Radical problem greatly. However, if it all comes down to these people being unable to live together, then we should do the next best thing. Defend free will and help them crack apart.


'til 1918 they were a part of the Ottoman Empire (Ottomans are not Arab). Then a British colony. Then under Saddam's dictature. Arab people there have never been sovereign for a long time. So it is very inaccurate to say "400 years of consistent Arab failure".

Not Iraqi failure....."Arab" failure encompasses the entire region. We are talking about a region where almost no art has been produced for 4 centuries. No great poetry or books. No great humanitarian works for others. No great invention. Not even a military campaign to cling some pride on. It is this way, because after Ibn Batuta, this civilization froze. They have been consistingly failed at statescraft, economy, and human rights. Just as Europe began its dramatic rise Islamic civilization stepped down into a tomb of its own free will.

In terms of art, we could go even further. Even at its most luxurious and vibrant Islamic art was little more than a craft (I'm not bashing, American works of physical art is garbage next to Europe's). The use of color regulated, the forms of written expression rigidly defined. Thousand Nights and a Night is the greatest work of literature in Muslim culture. And it is woman hating, vividly racist, and exuberantly cruel. There has been no progress in a thousand years.

And of course, then came colonialism and the maintaining of stability at all costs by America.

And you are correct about the Ottomans. They are not Arabs, which means their successes to do belong to the Arab Middle East. This region desperately needs a success story.
 
Do you believe it all depends on which regions are being polled?

The ORB poll is the most geographically widely-based and statistically strong poll done thus far. In this poll, 13 governates representing 74 percent of the population support the al Maliki regime; five provinces, representing 26 percent of the population, prefer Baathist rule. The supporters of the new order include the Kurdish regions of the north, the Shiite provinces of the south and mid-Euphrates regions, and Baghdad itself. The ratios of support-to-opposition in these governates average better than 10-to-1.

Both polls reflect the desire for MNF troops to remain and provide security.

Conclusions: The majority populations of Iraq (Shia and Kurd) believe that the surge will work. The minority population (Arab Sunni) fears that it may not.
 
Yep I agree, GySgt.

I read that in my courses last week, the same happened in China. Something has to change, it's sure. But maybe everybody is not fitted for wester-like democracy (whose roots are deeply western: Athens, French Revolution...). Maybe the way you try to spread it is wrong (too fast, or too brutal). Or maybe they simply need time to adapt. Time will tell.
 
Definately. A poll inside the Sunni triangle, especially in the Baghdad/Fallujah region, will be Sunni intensive. The north will be Kurdish and the South will be Shia. All three will give us different looking results.

So it is fair play to assume that this thread is not representative of Iraqis and is therefor inadmissible when trying to argue that life is getting for all Iraqis. Correct?
 
So it is fair play to assume that this thread is not representative of Iraqis and is therefor inadmissible when trying to argue that life is getting for all Iraqis. Correct?

Well, it is a poll conducted with Iraqis. Therefore it does represent Iraqis.

HOWEVER, we have to be careful about polls, especially in a society with such extreme lines drawn between people, fanatical religious people at that. A poll across America would represent America pretty fairly. But a poll in Iraq can mislead or it can be accurate. And given the fact that our own intelligencia is just recently coming to a realization that they must learn these cultures and stop relying on shabby intel work and "safe" predictions, I would assume that many pollsters are walking around in the dark as well.

From what I have read,

1) There is a substantial amount of Iraqis that are genuinely angry towards America for ever crossing the border. This portion of Iraq is primarily in the Sunni triangle.

2) There is a substantial amount of Iraqis that are genuinely greatful towards America for crossing the border. This portion is primarily in the south and in the north.

3) And then there is the greater amount of Iraqis that are genuinely greatful towards America for getting rid of Saddam Hussein and his sons and are also genuinely angry at how we have managed the occupation. This portion is spread throughout.

Of course, I neglected to throw in all the other details that pollsters like to produce in order to show a favorable or less than favorable picture. But what you wont find on any poll or on the lips of any Iraqi is the most important aspect for change within this entire region. You will not see a willingness for Muslims to blame their own culture. It is true that after the fall of Saddam Hussein, we had a flawed American postwar policy (love ya Rummy), a provocation by foreign Jihadists, a retaliation by militias like al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, the ineptitude of Iraqi politicians and, lately, Iranian interference. But all of this fighting and massacring between the sects goes far deeper. Ultimately, Muslims have Muslims to blame. And until they do and stop seeking that foriegn devil to blame all woes upon, they will stumble quite violently to an end one way or the other. They have to finish this 14 century struggle once and for all and move on. They have been struggling for political, religious, and economical control of the Middle East since Muhammed's death. And given the population in Iraq, that is the location where such a thing is going to define the whole region's futures.

Life is better for the once oppressed and not better for the ones who used to oppress at the present time. It is hard to narrow this down one way or the other no matter how hard pollsters try.
 
Well, it is a poll conducted with Iraqis. Therefore it does represent Iraqis.

HOWEVER, we have to be careful about polls, especially in a society with such extreme lines drawn between people, fanatical religious people at that. A poll across America would represent America pretty fairly. But a poll in Iraq can mislead or it can be accurate. And given the fact that our own intelligencia is just recently coming to a realization that they must learn these cultures and stop relying on shabby intel work and "safe" predictions, I would assume that many pollsters are walking around in the dark as well.

From what I have read,

1) There is a substantial amount of Iraqis that are genuinely angry towards America for ever crossing the border. This portion of Iraq is primarily in the Sunni triangle.

2) There is a substantial amount of Iraqis that are genuinely greatful towards America for crossing the border. This portion is primarily in the south and in the north.

3) And then there is the greater amount of Iraqis that are genuinely greatful towards America for getting rid of Saddam Hussein and his sons and are also genuinely angry at how we have managed the occupation. This portion is spread throughout.

Of course, I neglected to throw in all the other details that pollsters like to produce in order to show a favorable or less than favorable picture. But what you wont find on any poll or on the lips of any Iraqi is the most important aspect for change within this entire region. You will not see a willingness for Muslims to blame their own culture. It is true that after the fall of Saddam Hussein, we had a flawed American postwar policy (love ya Rummy), a provocation by foreign Jihadists, a retaliation by militias like al-Sadr's Mahdi Army, the ineptitude of Iraqi politicians and, lately, Iranian interference. But all of this fighting and massacring between the sects goes far deeper. Ultimately, Muslims have Muslims to blame. And until they do and stop seeking that foriegn devil to blame all woes upon, they will stumble quite violently to an end one way or the other. They have to finish this 14 century struggle once and for all and move on. They have been struggling for political, religious, and economical control of the Middle East since Muhammed's death. And given the population in Iraq, that is the location where such a thing is going to define the whole region's futures.

Life is better for the once oppressed and not better for the ones who used to oppress at the present time. It is hard to narrow this down one way or the other no matter how hard pollsters try.

Good points.

However, as long as the foreign devil continues to occupy Iraq following what many there see as an unjustified attack and invasion, I suspect that the probability that they will "stop seeking that foriegn devil to blame all woes upon" is about nil.
 
Yep I agree, GySgt.

I read that in my courses last week, the same happened in China. Something has to change, it's sure. But maybe everybody is not fitted for wester-like democracy (whose roots are deeply western: Athens, French Revolution...).

Absolutely. This is also something we have to understand better and accept. Democracy has a different look between civilizations and thusly so does freedom. We can see this even between America and Europe. Americans and Europeans each find the other's systems disheartening. Europeans choose security. Americans choose opportunity. The fact that most Europeans and most Americans still resemble each other racially obscures the deep and growing differences between our civilizations.

In Russia, we watched Putin strip personal freedom away from the masses and the massess mindlessly allowed it in exchange for jobs and security.

In Iran, we see a democracy where the bitter Mullahs give the last blessing on who is and is not to be a candidate for the Presidency. Many do not define this as democracy, but it is a form of democracy. It is their form.

And we could go on and on. But ultimately we will come to the conclusion that each culture has to define democracy as it needs to fit into their society. The American democracy, especially, is a culture all by itself. It has grown more as a form of culture than just a form of government. This is what we have to understand about the Middle East. We cannot allow ourselves to think that if we only just remove the regime obstacle that freedom and democracy will magically appear and correct all wrong (The NeoCon plan). Democracy in the Middle East will never look like what we want it to. And Iraq's government won't start to take a healthy shape (by present day Islam's definitions) for another three or four elections.




Maybe the way you try to spread it is wrong (too fast, or too brutal). Or maybe they simply need time to adapt. Time will tell.

That's the big question. Iraq is supposed to be that dramatic beacon for change and at the same time, we got rid of Saddam Hussein's Baathist influence (a definate road block for the region). Time to adapt has been given to the rest of the Middle East.

But we have to accept that with Iraq's diverse and very seperated population, it will determine the region's future, but it will be a violent path to whatever their destination will be.

And despite so much failures spanning centuries, I have to have faith that mankind always eventually chooses to live in peace for their children's sake and that "freedom" lies in the heart of every human being. Civilizations, like individuals, have to learn the hard way. Iraqis will learn the harsh lesson, but they will eventually learn it.
 
Good points.

However, as long as the foreign devil continues to occupy Iraq following what many there see as an unjustified attack and invasion, I suspect that the probability that they will "stop seeking that foriegn devil to blame all woes upon" is about nil.

It has never and will continue to not be that simple. Simply retreating from the Middle East, Africa, and South East Asia will not make them reflect inward. We retreat from Iraq, and they will hate us for Saudi Arabia. We retreat from Saudi Arabia, they will hate us for Israel. We retreat from supporting our allies, they will hate us for peace keeping missions in Somalia. We act on behalf of humanity in Sudan or Rwanda, we will be hated for interfering. We are hated in India and Indonesia for simply suporting governments that seek to deny the most hard lined Radical his seat of power. We completely remove ourselves from the world and pull within our borders, we will be hated because some reporter or cartoonist decides to celebrate his freedom and point a blasphemous story or cartoon. Even Hollywood can't do the right thing (The movie 300), in their eyes.

The Middle East is united in hatred for the West. It doesn't matter how many Muslims are rescued from Saddam's grip in Kuwait, an organization like Al-Queda will rise. It doesn't matter how much financial aid and peace deliberation conducted by American Presidents regarding the Israeli/Palestinian process is given, widesweeping hatred will persist. It doesn't matter how much aid and on location support is given to Muslim earthquake and Tsunami victims, Israel will always be blamed for starting such natural disasters and America's goodwill will go unnoticed right after the victims are finished accepting aid.

The truth is that hundreds of millions need to blame a foreign devil. By freezing their civilization four centuries ago while the West took off, there is a great measure of pride missing. There is a lot of ego that has been battered amongst the truly religious. And these governments are too closely tied to their religion. Since the days of Muhammed, the community has prescribed government and religion as almost a single word. Blaming themselves means a measure of blasphemy and Muslims just do not question the Qu'ran.

Hate and blame has become a part of their culture.
 
Absolutely. This is also something we have to understand better and accept. Democracy has a different look between civilizations and thusly so does freedom. We can see this even between America and Europe. Americans and Europeans each find the other's systems disheartening. Europeans choose security. Americans choose opportunity.

Hmmm. I think you have it backwards. America spends far more per capita on security related things, military, law enforcement, than Europe. My guess is Americans in general are far more terrified about their security than Europeans are.

You are attributing the fact that major European nations did agree with Bush's war on Iraq and most Europeans oppose it with "security" and opportunity. Many disagree that the Iraq war has anything to do with either.

In Russia, we watched Putin strip personal freedom away from the masses and the massess mindlessly allowed it in exchange for jobs and security.

Russia is not a particularly representative example of Europe.

In Iran, we see a democracy where the bitter Mullahs give the last blessing on who is and is not to be a candidate for the Presidency. Many do not define this as democracy, but it is a form of democracy. It is their form.

Iranians elected (relative moderates) in the two prior elections, and after the pretextual invastion by the foreign devil of their next door neighbor, chose the most radical anti-American candidate from a slate of candidates. As you have pointed out, people who feel threatened tend to turn towards more radical militant leaders. Case in point.

...

And despite so mcuh failures spanning centuries, I have to have faith that mankind always eventually chooses to live in peace for their children's sake and that "freedom" lies in the heart of every human being.

Me too. However, when choosing, the most competitive option to freedom is security. Many will give up freedom in exchange for security. We see that same tension in our own country, where after our freedom was threatened on 9-11 our government almost immediately passed a sweeping law providing for greater security measures at the cost of lesser freedoms, in the form of the Patriot Act, with nary a thought about it.

Politicians know this. That is why the security threat is notched up by the Republicans whenever they needed some votes. "Urgent threat" and mushroom clouds and all that.

Same is true in the ME. Where their security is threatened, like from a foreign devil, the option of security over freedom will be much more attractive.

Thus, ironically, while our intention may have been to induce greater freedom in the ME (giving the Bush Admin the benefit of a great deal of doubt here), the threat to their security posed by our actions creates an opposite effect.
 
It has never and will continue to not be that simple. Simply retreating from the Middle East, Africa, and South East Asia will not make them reflect inward. We retreat from Iraq, and they will hate us for Saudi Arabia. We retreat from Saudi Arabia, they will hate us for Israel. We retreat from supporting our allies, they will hate us for peace keeping missions in Somalia. We act on behalf of humanity in Sudan or Rwanda, we will be hated for interfering. We are hated in India and Indonesia for simply suporting governments that seek to deny the most hard lined Radical his seat of power. We completely remove ourselves from the world and pull within our borders, we will be hated because some reporter or cartoonist decides to celebrate his freedom and point a blasphemous story or cartoon. Even Hollywood can't do the right thing (The movie 300), in their eyes.

Of course, except for Iraq, I did not suggest we do anything of the kind.

The Middle East is united in hatred for the West. It doesn't matter how many Muslims are rescued from Saddam's grip in Kuwait, an organization like Al-Queda will rise. It doesn't matter how much financial aid and peace deliberation conducted by American Presidents regarding the Israeli/Palestinian process is given, widesweeping hatred will persist. It doesn't matter how much aid and on location support is given to Muslim earthquake and Tsunami victims, Israel will always be blamed for starting such natural disasters and America's goodwill will go unnoticed right after the victims are finished accepting aid.

The truth is that hundreds of millions need to blame a foreign devil. By freezing their civilization four centuries ago while the West took off, there is a great measure of pride missing. There is a lot of ego that has been battered amongst the truly religious. And these governments are too closely tied to their religion. Since the days of Muhammed, the community has prescribed government and religion as almost a single word. Blaming themselves means a measure of blasphemy and Muslims just do not question the Qu'ran.

Hate and blame has become a part of their culture.

You are the one being simplistic now, applying a homogenous view of the ME and Muslims that is unrealistic, and denying cause and effect of our actions and poicies on peoples' perceptions.
 
Of course, except for Iraq, I did not suggest we do anything of the kind.
No you didn't. But they have. Leaving Iraq will not prevent them from blaming foreign devils for all woes. We were blamed for it all before 2003, and we will be blamed long after we leave Iraq.


You are the one being simplistic now, applying a homogenous view of the ME and Muslims that is unrealistic, and denying cause and effect of our actions and poicies on peoples' perceptions.

So....our policies affected them four centuries ago. Our maintaining of Muslim governments for "stability" is why their culture prescribed failure 14 centuries ago. Our needs for oil business in the last half of the twentieth century is why Muslims prescribed restrictions and individual oppressions centuries ago. I'm afraid what you consider unrealistic is very real. And given the plenty of sources I have produced for you in book form written by Muslims of education, you are adhering to unrealistic visions of what you are looking at. You are seeking to validate an easy understanding of this phenomenon by assuming that immediate hatred for this or that defines this undercurrent rage. European colonialism and American oil came after the fact. We are merely the scapegoat for their own failures. At this point, all it would take is for us to chop down a tree in Saudi Arabia, and we would have extended their hate for centuries. Countless hundreds of millions still blame their current day failures on the Crusades.

None of this is a simple as American dirty hands. Were it not for our existence, their hatred would simply be pointed at Europe. And of course, their hatreds for each other has been ingrained for 14 centuries.


It's pretty simple. Why did Al-Queda start it's rampage upon American targets?
 
Hmmm. I think you have it backwards. America spends far more per capita on security related things, military, law enforcement, than Europe. My guess is Americans in general are far more terrified about their security than Europeans are.

You are attributing the fact that major European nations did agree with Bush's war on Iraq and most Europeans oppose it with "security" and opportunity. Many disagree that the Iraq war has anything to do with either.

Not the kind of security I was talking about. I was talking about individual security. I was talking about gun control, educational desires, job gaurantees. European freedom is essentially passive, protective. American freedom is much closer to liberty. For Europeans, the essential freedoms are always from something, from unemployment, from social disparities, from need, from war, from the noise of a lawnmower on a Sunday morning. They are very socialistic. For Americans, freedom means the freedom to do. We can see their lives and see their limits. They regard our freedom to succeed as little more than the freedom to fail. This would better explain that difference in democracy and freedom betwen our cultures I mentioned. Despite the chronic gloom of our intelligencia, we are the world's optimists. Europeans are the pessimists. And even if their pessimism occassionally proves well-founded, it's still the optimists who change the world. These differences are direct results of historical events. If we hosted two world wars, we would probably be the same way.

You've got Bush on the brain. It's got nothing to do with Bush. But thanks for playing.


Russia is not a particularly representative example of Europe.
I didn't mean it as a representation of Europe. It was representation of another face of democracy.

Iranians elected (relative moderates) in the two prior elections, and after the pretextual invastion by the foreign devil of their next door neighbor, chose the most radical anti-American candidate from a slate of candidates. As you have pointed out, people who feel threatened tend to turn towards more radical militant leaders. Case in point.

And again, we see Bush on the brain. This form of democracy has been in Iran since Khomeini died. Ahmenadejad's rise to power does not dispute what I said.
 
No you didn't. But they have. Leaving Iraq will not prevent them from blaming foreign devils for all woes. We were blamed for it all before 2003, and we will be blamed long after we leave Iraq.

So....our policies affected them four centuries ago. Our maintaining of Muslim governments for "stability" is why their culture prescribed failure 14 centuries ago. Our needs for oil business in the last half of the twentieth century is why Muslims prescribed restrictions and individual oppressions centuries ago. I'm afraid what you consider unrealistic is very real. And given the plenty of sources I have produced for you in book form written by Muslims of education, you are adhering to unrealistic visions of what you are looking at. You are seeking to validate an easy understanding of this phenomenon by assuming that immediate hatred for this or that defines this undercurrent rage. European colonialism and American oil came after the fact. We are merely the scapegoat for their own failures. At this point, all it would take is for us to chop down a tree in Saudi Arabia, and we would have extended their hate for centuries. Countless hundreds of millions still blame their current day failures on the Crusades.

None of this is a simple as American dirty hands. Were it not for our existence, their hatred would simply be pointed at Europe. And of course, their hatreds for each other has been ingrained for 14 centuries.

It's pretty simple. Why did Al-Queda start it's rampage upon American targets?

1. I never claimed Iraq and this administration's blatant partisan favoritism of Israel is the sole source of antagonism in the ME. As you point out there is a history there, including European colonialism. In fact, given that recent history, you might expect that Muslims would be particularly sensitive about a Western power invading their country on pretext, and indefinitely occupying it.

My point is that your refusal to acknowledge any cause and effect of US policy and action, so we can do whatever the hell we want with no consequence, is unrealistic.

2. I never denied that there have been, are and will be groups with intense hatred of the US. I point out your homogenous presentation of the ME is unrealistic.

Although I would agree that our policies and actions over the past few years have done much to united Muslims in their disdain for our country.
 
Originally Posted by Iriemon Iranians elected (relative moderates) in the two prior elections, and after the pretextual invastion by the foreign devil of their next door neighbor, chose the most radical anti-American candidate from a slate of candidates. As you have pointed out, people who feel threatened tend to turn towards more radical militant leaders. Case in point.

And again, we see Bush on the brain. This form of democracy has been in Iran since Khomeini died. Ahmenadejad's rise to power does not dispute what I said.

Could be just a coincidence. But I doubt it.
 
1. I never claimed Iraq and this administration's blatant partisan favoritism of Israel is the sole source of antagonism in the ME. As you point out there is a history there, including European colonialism. In fact, given that recent history, you might expect that Muslims would be particularly sensitive about a Western power invading their country on pretext, and indefinitely occupying it.

My point is that your refusal to acknowledge any cause and effect of US policy and action, so we can do whatever the hell we want with no consequence, is unrealistic.

Well, that's not true at all. How many times have I wrote that our policies in Iraq have and will create terrorists in the immediate light? How many times have I stated that were it not for our willingness to stand by Israel, we would be largely left alone? How many times have I stated that European colonialism's willingness to draw lines on a map to satisfy regal demands has resulted in a third world full of people who do not wish to live together and people who have not been able to live together? And how many times must I mention that our sin during the Cold War was to maintain these unnatural borders for that "stability" people long for even today, and the result today has been a support of long over due expired governments?

The result of these things have nurtured and shoved many individuals to extremism. But most of these individuals are merely adhering to the preachinigs of their leaders who prescribe the West as their culprit for failure.

Immediate "cause and effect" doesn't define this problem. What is really at the heart of this hatred towards the west is our culture that invades their nice comfortable superstitious order. And of course, what is at the heart of their hatreds towards each other is Islam.
2. I point out your homogenous presentation of the ME is unrealistic.

Unbelievable.
 
Well, that's not true at all. How many times have I wrote that our policies in Iraq have and will create terrorists in the immediate light?

Jeez I've never heard you say that.

How many times have I stated that were it not for our willingness to stand by Israel, we would be largely left alone? How many times have I stated that European colonialism's willingness to draw lines on a map to satisfy regal demands has resulted in a third world full of people who do not wish to live together and people who have not been able to live together? And how many times must I mention that our sin during the Cold War was to maintain these unnatural borders for that "stability" people long for even today, and the result today has been a support of long over due expired governments?

It sounds like you are agreeing that our actions and policies do have an effect on how the US is viewed in the ME. That's been my point.

Aside from Israel, perhaps, and the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait what has the US done to maintain the unnatural borders.

Kuwait is arguably an unnatural border. Were we wrong to defend that unnatural border too?

The result of these things have nurtured and shoved many individuals to extremism. But most of these individuals are merely adhering to the preachinigs of their leaders who prescribe the West as their culprit for failure.

So how does it help US policy by undertaking actions that reinforce what these teachers are preaching?

And of course, what is at the heart of their hatreds towards each other is Islam.

I disagree that the Shia/Sunni hatred (if that is to what you were referring) is simply a matter of Islam. Shia and Sunni beliefs are very close, on the same par as Catholics and Protestants. And there have been times when Catholics and Protestants warred. But the real struggle is about power, not intra-Islamic fighting based on religious beliefs. To try to assign the power struggle between Shia and Sunni in Iraq as a simple matter of religion is an attempt to shift the blame for that power struggle for US policy in Iraq, which deposed one group from power in favor of the other.

Unbelievable.

That is what I was thinking.
 
Iriemon said:
I disagree that the Shia/Sunni hatred (if that is to what you were referring) is simply a matter of Islam. Shia and Sunni beliefs are very close, on the same par as Catholics and Protestants. And there have been times when Catholics and Protestants warred. But the real struggle is about power, not intra-Islamic fighting based on religious beliefs. To try to assign the power struggle between Shia and Sunni in Iraq as a simple matter of religion is an attempt to shift the blame for that power struggle for US policy in Iraq, which deposed one group from power in favor of the other.

Well, yes and no. True, a significant portion of the current struggle between a group recently dispossessed and a group recently enfranchised. But it is not accurate to assign sole responsibility for the current sectarian violence to US intervention either.

The religious differences have prompted many, many assassinations and murders in Iraq over the years. For a solid read on the religious background both historically and in the context of the current situation, read Fouad Ajami's "The Foreigner's Gift: The Americans, the Arabs, and the Iraqis in Iraq." For example, did you ever wonder just why Mouqtada al Sadr, at the relatively young age of 30 is able to command one of the largest private militias in Iraq, or more fundamentally, why he is entitled (or is he?) to wear the black turban (and what does that signify, exactly)? Furthermore, al Sadr's large militia is Shia, yet the minority Sunnis were able to repress the Shia for many years? How?

The easy answer is that it was with Saddam's help. But that answer masks many decades of open antagonism between the sects, more often than not resulting in bloodshed, sometimes with the sponsorship of Saddam or one of his sons, sometimes not.

A more complete answer is that, to many Muslims in the ME and certainly to the fundamentalist Muslims, there is no difference between politics and religion. They are one and the same. Sectarian violence is nothing new to Iraq. It has intensified and is now on a much larger scale, yes, but it is nonetheless the same sectarian violence that has characterized Sunni - Shia political and religious relations for many decades.

To put it really, really simply: over the decades, it has become a war between competing ayatollahs, who have not hesitated, when it seemed to their advantage to do so, to declare their opponents as apostates or kifir or other classifications that permitted them to be killed under Muslim beliefs.
 
Aside from Israel, perhaps, and the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait what has the US done to maintain the unnatural borders.

There are many. Iraq, Yugoslavia, Nigeria, Pakistan-each a Frankentstien's monster of a country, cobbled together. Somalia, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia were imagined as states where only tribes existed. Tribes found themselves split between German, Potruguese, Italian, and English masters, between merciless Belgians and French. It was the opposite in other places - tribes or religious communities with histories of gory rivalry found themselves bound together within a colony destined to become a blood-soaked state. Iraq is an example of one of these Frankentstien's monster states that is unable to sustain a sense of "peace" without that brutal dictator enforcing his prescription.

After WWII, Russia started the race of influence and America joined in the struggle to maintain a balance. We foolishly strived to maintain any existing order as long as it pledged allegiance to us and not to communism. We got so used to this form of statescraft and our obsession with intact borders, no matter the flaws of origin, became so great that a Republican secretary of state tried to persuade the splintering Soviet Union to remain whole-after we had finally cracked it apart. Then his Democratic successor insisted that Yugoslavia must remain intact. In Somalia we pretended that a shifting constellation of tribes was a country. In the Balkans, even now, we pretend that Kosovo might again be a happy extension of Serbia (despite Kosovo's insurmountable internal divisions). And instead of dividing Iraq into its natural fault lines, Marines and soldiers are dying to maintain bounderies agreed upon by a Frenchman and an Englishman a century ago.

We are fighting wars that either we cannot win in the long run or that we can win only at great costs. I've said this before. We are in an age of devolution, of breakdown, of the last dismantling of empires. The world has been made wrong and the world is changing volcanically. We are pretending that the status quo can be maintained but this defies bith history and the immediate evidence. Borders have always changed. The only question today, is how they will change.

We have to start listening to the will of the people.

Kuwait is arguably an unnatural border. Were we wrong to defend that unnatural border too?

The populaiton of Kuwait gets along very well together. This unnatural border is not a problem and not so unnatural (it's lkike a line between two U.S. states.). But, our involvement with Kuwait was a problem for Osama Bin Ladden and his agents of terror of Al-Queda.

So how does it help US policy by undertaking actions that reinforce what these teachers are preaching?
Again...how exactly did saving Muslims in Kuwait anger Al-Queda so? And how does any nation cause a tsunami that kills countless Muslims? Without a good reason, they simply lie and twist facts. For too long we have allowed the fear of angering people that already have been indoctrinated to hate us. We may as well do somthing that will help them and will give us better security in the end.

I disagree that the Shia/Sunni hatred (if that is to what you were referring) is simply a matter of Islam. Shia and Sunni beliefs are very close, on the same par as Catholics and Protestants. And there have been times when Catholics and Protestants warred. But the real struggle is about power, not intra-Islamic fighting based on religious beliefs. To try to assign the power struggle between Shia and Sunni in Iraq as a simple matter of religion is an attempt to shift the blame for that power struggle for US policy in Iraq, which deposed one group from power in favor of the other.

Sunni and Shi'it in Iraq are fighting for a secular prize: political domination. This schism began 14 centuries ago in 632A.D. after Muhammed died without naming a successor as leader of the new Muslims flock. Some of his believers (future Shi'ite) believed the role of Caliphate should be passed down Muhammed's bloodline, starting with his cousin and son-in-law. But the majority (Sunni) backed the Prophet's friend Abu Bakr. The next few decades would define the seperation between the sects. They have been in a fourteen century struggle for the identity of Islam and for political control over Muhammed's community. And this struggle is very much a part of these governments. Today's Iraq (which Bush stumbled into) is the direct representation of this feud. There is a very well written book called "The Shia Revival" that explains all of this. It was written by a Muslim professor of Middle East and South Asia politics. He is an adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. His name is Vali Nasr.

I keep telling you that this is not a simple issue. Our biggest sin is our ignorance to understand this culture. And this sin has extended as high as the White House for decades.
 
Well, yes and no. True, a significant portion of the current struggle between a group recently dispossessed and a group recently enfranchised. But it is not accurate to assign sole responsibility for the current sectarian violence to US intervention either.

The religious differences have prompted many, many assassinations and murders in Iraq over the years. For a solid read on the religious background both historically and in the context of the current situation, read Fouad Ajami's "The Foreigner's Gift: The Americans, the Arabs, and the Iraqis in Iraq." For example, did you ever wonder just why Mouqtada al Sadr, at the relatively young age of 30 is able to command one of the largest private militias in Iraq, or more fundamentally, why he is entitled (or is he?) to wear the black turban (and what does that signify, exactly)? Furthermore, al Sadr's large militia is Shia, yet the minority Sunnis were able to repress the Shia for many years? How?

The easy answer is that it was with Saddam's help. But that answer masks many decades of open antagonism between the sects, more often than not resulting in bloodshed, sometimes with the sponsorship of Saddam or one of his sons, sometimes not.

A more complete answer is that, to many Muslims in the ME and certainly to the fundamentalist Muslims, there is no difference between politics and religion. They are one and the same. Sectarian violence is nothing new to Iraq. It has intensified and is now on a much larger scale, yes, but it is nonetheless the same sectarian violence that has characterized Sunni - Shia political and religious relations for many decades.

To put it really, really simply: over the decades, it has become a war between competing ayatollahs, who have not hesitated, when it seemed to their advantage to do so, to declare their opponents as apostates or kifir or other classifications that permitted them to be killed under Muslim beliefs.

I agree there was the undercurrent of historical resentment, and didn't mean to imply everything was lovey-dovey prior to the US invasion. On the other hand, sectarian relations have gotten far worse since then.

The US opened Pandora's box.
 
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