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Thread: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

  1. #111
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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Intended to be? I just don't think it is all that clear. We both could present arguments as to the intentions supporting our POV. And We could probably quote the same person saying the exact opposite things. The couple of things I do know are that the Founding Fathers were pretty smart people and very knowledgeable about the most contemporary ideas of their time. Another thing I know is they lived in the 18th century and while could have imagined all these wonderful gadgets we have today they did not have to deal with them.
    so your argument is that the Founding Fathers wouldn't have supported the right of Congress to strike down trade restrictions between the states?

    ....given that that is precisely how they put that law into effect ..... i'm going to have to go with suggesting "no."

    if I may cite Gibbons v Ogden:
    ...the sovereignty of Congress, though limited to specified objects, is plenary as to those objects, the power over commerce with foreign nations and among the several states is vested in Congress as absolutely as it would be in a single government..
    If you are trying to start a conversation about negative and positive rights you will not get to far with me. I pretty much think it is a false dichotomy especially in the area of health care and prevent health care delivery from moving into the 21st century.
    it's certainly how the Founding Fathers viewed them - and how they wrote them into the Constitution. The only things they said Government had to provide was (as far as i am aware) pertaining to the rights of the accused - swift trial by jury and so forth. Everything else generally starts off with the "Congress shall not...." format.

    Even President Obama ("Constitutional Scholar" that he is) agrees with this basic idea - though he thinks it is a problem, and I disagree and find it a feature.

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is correct. state level politicians are currently paid well by the insurance agencies in their borders to keep those borders sealed. however, breaking these kind of trade restrictions between the states is precisely why we gave the Congress the right to regulate interstate congress. They don't have to knock down the restrictions, but they have the legnitimate right to, and it would go far towards lowering health insurance prices. That is what Conservative is talking about.
    Actually, it would lower the restrictions of health insurance companies which is currently required by every state. Change these rules and the health insurance companies will lower their standards. This would effectively be a deregulation of the health insurance industry and an invitation to shysters to setup shop.


  3. #113
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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    yes, it would increase competition. consumers would be free to choose any healthcare plan they wish, with any coverage they wish. the effect of this would be to increase efficiency in the market and lower prices - just like for every other product. that's sort of the point.

  4. #114
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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    Race card. Thud.

    Cmon, at least pretend like you can make a valid point.

    Just pointing out that I am seeing similarities of the rhetoric that wingers are using in their opposition to healthcare is the same as was used by George Wallace in his "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever!"stance.Kinda looks like the same playbook.

    Errie."no healthcare now, no healthcare now tomorrow, and no healthcare now forever! for 20 percent of people in the United States.Kinda wonder why wingers dont run with this slogan.Maybe the Wallace clan has it copyrighted.





    Here judge for yourselves…

    <George Wallace for President 1968. >

    <ON STATES RIGHTS.>

    <I recommend that the states of the Union continue to determine the policies of their domestic institutions themselves and that the bureaucrats and theoreticians in Washington let people in Ohio and New York and California decide themselves. I recommend states rights and local government, and territorial Democracy.
    >


    <George C. Wallace is the undisputed leader in the fight for personal and property rights, and against excessive taxation and the takeover of personal rights by the "great society.">


    The only thing that has changed in the rhetoric is the race and the time.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    Just pointing out that I am seeing similarities of the rhetoric that wingers are using in their opposition to healthcare is the same as was used by George Wallace in his "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever!"stance.Kinda looks like the same playbook.

    Errie."no healthcare now, no healthcare now tomorrow, and no healthcare now forever! for 20 percent of people in the United States.Kinda wonder why wingers dont run with this slogan.Maybe the Wallace clan has it copyrighted.





    Here judge for yourselves…

    <George Wallace for President 1968. >

    <ON STATES RIGHTS.>

    <I recommend that the states of the Union continue to determine the policies of their domestic institutions themselves and that the bureaucrats and theoreticians in Washington let people in Ohio and New York and California decide themselves. I recommend states rights and local government, and territorial Democracy.
    >


    <George C. Wallace is the undisputed leader in the fight for personal and property rights, and against excessive taxation and the takeover of personal rights by the "great society.">


    The only thing that has changed in the rhetoric is the race and the time.
    pshaw. like i'm going to take the time to bother responding to charlie chaplain

    congratulations on taking a history of posting that - while i found certainly opposed to my own beliefs, i considered worth of consideration and response - and pooping all over them with bullhockey like this.
    Last edited by cpwill; 05-20-11 at 02:12 AM.

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    pshaw. like i'm going to take the time to bother responding to charlie chaplain

    congratulations on taking a history of posting that - while i found certainly opposed to my own beliefs, i considered worth of consideration and response - and pooping all over them with bullhockey like this.
    "States’ rights" new code word for anything we don’t like that Obamas for.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so your argument is that the Founding Fathers wouldn't have supported the right of Congress to strike down trade restrictions between the states?
    That is not at all what I said. Maybe I said it badly? Of course Congress has the right to regulate interstate commerce. And given the opportunity they certainly will in healthcare.





    it's certainly how the Founding Fathers viewed them - and how they wrote them into the Constitution. The only things they said Government had to provide was (as far as i am aware) pertaining to the rights of the accused - swift trial by jury and so forth. Everything else generally starts off with the "Congress shall not...." format.

    Even President Obama ("Constitutional Scholar" that he is) agrees with this basic idea - though he thinks it is a problem, and I disagree and find it a feature.
    Voting, positive right so obviously they were aware of them. And I do not think the Constitution is perfect. And I do not think the Founding Fathers were perfect. They lived in the 18th century. And I do not think the Founding Fathers think they were perfect. I can understand how people can see the Constitution though as mostly negative rights.

    However I see negative and positive rights intersecting each other often. But that is another conversation.

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by donc View Post
    "States’ rights" new code word for anything we don’t like that Obamas for.
    hah. says the guy who loves hitler.

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    That is not at all what I said. Maybe I said it badly? Of course Congress has the right to regulate interstate commerce. And given the opportunity they certainly will in healthcare.
    alrighty then. perhaps you were simply objecting to my depiction of the striking down of state trade barriers as the original intent of the interstate commerce line?

    Voting, positive right so obviously they were aware of them.
    can you direct me to the part of the Constitution where the Founding Fathers established the right to vote?

    yes, they were definitely aware of the concept. they had just fought a revolution (for example) over parliament and the kings' claims to positive rights. Their opinions were a little more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.
    this.

    And I do not think the Constitution is perfect. And I do not think the Founding Fathers were perfect. They lived in the 18th century. And I do not think the Founding Fathers think they were perfect. I can understand how people can see the Constitution though as mostly negative rights.

    However I see negative and positive rights intersecting each other often. But that is another conversation.
    truth.

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    Re: Mitch Daniels Not Only Took ObamaCare Funds, He Pushed Similar Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    hah. says the guy who loves hitler.
    Hey, Adolph was your strawman, my strawman is still standing tall, thanks to winger rhetoric.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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