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Thread: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I think the argument that there are black founders just floundered.
    Well...we could teach that there were black founders of slavery in America...that would be consistent...right? Does the name Anthony Johnson resonate anywhere? Anyone recall being taught the history of slavery in America or for that matter around the world? I dont think we should eliminate American history...I think we should by damn go deeper. Teach a complete and fuller understanding of the practice...participants...and a little then and now might even be appropriate.

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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Actually, no. The proposed law would not let textbooks say anything that puts the Founding Fathers in any sort of negative light. Inasmuch as slavery is negative, and some of the founders owned slaves, it's impossible to tell the whole truth while following this bill..

    You were misinformed about the 3/5 compromise. That was put into place because the southern states wanted slaves to count as far as apportioning the House of Representatives, because counting the slaves would give them more representation than the north. Of course, they still weren't allowed to vote. The compromise was put in place to stop this blatant power grab by the south that would give slave owners more power.
    I agree with you that this bill is wrong. Far from restricting what is being taught they should teach more. Not just about the founding fathers, but about the practice of slavery in other parts of the world. Slavery as practiced in pre 1776 America. Black slave owners in America. Across the board. No one should be afraid of history. It simply teaches us what was. It is very important to teach a complete history and not just selected pieces/parts.

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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    And what is here wrong?
    There's nothing wrong Alfons, at least from you point of view which a human must qualify as a Western Christian
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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proud South Korean View Post
    There's nothing wrong Alfons, at least from you point of view which a human must qualify as a Western Christian
    Is there a slavery history in Korea?

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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Well...we could teach that there were black founders of slavery in America...that would be consistent...right? Does the name Anthony Johnson resonate anywhere? Anyone recall being taught the history of slavery in America or for that matter around the world? I dont think we should eliminate American history...I think we should by damn go deeper. Teach a complete and fuller understanding of the practice...participants...and a little then and now might even be appropriate.
    There were black Africans who sold their neighboring villagers to the Portuguese slave traders, sure. Blacks founding slavery in America? No, I don't think so.

    Anthony Johnson was a black who owned land in Maryland in the 1600's, who died before the country was founded. I'm not sure why you're bringing him up in this context. Sure, there are many examples of free blacks going back before the founding of the nation. That doesn't make them founding fathers. .
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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    There were black Africans who sold their neighboring villagers to the Portuguese slave traders, sure. Blacks founding slavery in America? No, I don't think so.

    Anthony Johnson was a black who owned land in Maryland in the 1600's, who died before the country was founded. I'm not sure why you're bringing him up in this context. Sure, there are many examples of free blacks going back before the founding of the nation. That doesn't make them founding fathers. .
    Anthony Johnson was the first person in the colonies to petition the commonwealth courts for the right to ownership of another human being. They granted hyis petition, thus Anthony Johnson was the first on record slaveholder (NOT indentured servitude) in the Colonies. To deny that and ignore that as being irrelevant is stupid. What...do you want to pretend the 'founding fathers did not actually inherit a tradition of slavery and instead instituted it upon the formatiuon of the United States? The fact is that slavery was already abolished in several states before the constitution was signed. The importation of slaves was banned long before Lincolns proclamation. There were a large number of black slaveholders in America, especially Lousiana.

    Teach history...FULLY teach history. The US inherited a tradition. The founding fathers and subsequent generation of leaders in America moved to end slavery while this country was in its infancy. Every nation and people engaged in slavery and many today still do.

    TEACH history. Not some slanted version of hystery that is agenda based. Anyone that wants to omit the roles of the founding fathers is wrong, as is anyone stupid enough to maintain it is a white European tradition.

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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Anthony Johnson was the first person in the colonies to petition the commonwealth courts for the right to ownership of another human being. They granted hyis petition, thus Anthony Johnson was the first on record slaveholder (NOT indentured servitude) in the Colonies. To deny that and ignore that as being irrelevant is stupid. What...do you want to pretend the 'founding fathers did not actually inherit a tradition of slavery and instead instituted it upon the formatiuon of the United States? The fact is that slavery was already abolished in several states before the constitution was signed. The importation of slaves was banned long before Lincolns proclamation. There were a large number of black slaveholders in America, especially Lousiana.

    Teach history...FULLY teach history. The US inherited a tradition. The founding fathers and subsequent generation of leaders in America moved to end slavery while this country was in its infancy. Every nation and people engaged in slavery and many today still do.

    TEACH history. Not some slanted version of hystery that is agenda based. Anyone that wants to omit the roles of the founding fathers is wrong, as is anyone stupid enough to maintain it is a white European tradition.
    So, the first slave owner in America was a free black man?

    I have to admit, I did not know that. You do make a good point about teaching all of history, warts and all.

    Why you bring that up in a discussion about the founding fathers, I'm not sure, but it is an interesting bit of history, and something to tell the modern blacks who want to blame slavery and "whitey" for their lack of success.
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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So, the first slave owner in America was a free black man?

    I have to admit, I did not know that. You do make a good point about teaching all of history, warts and all.

    Why you bring that up in a discussion about the founding fathers, I'm not sure, but it is an interesting bit of history, and something to tell the modern blacks who want to blame slavery and "whitey" for their lack of success.
    Because history does not exist in a vacuum. The 'Founding Fathers' inherited slavery. Slavery was a tradition of the day practiced across the globe. It wasnt right...it was an ugly tradition, however it is a historical fact. Aboriginal peoples in the Americas practiced slavery long before there where Europeans. Africans practiced it. Spaniards practiced it. The Foundign Fathers were human beings...people of their time...not some magical mystical people that were graced with supernatural ability to stop global practices. On the other hand there is direct evidence that the founding fathers DID make compromises (as do all politicians in the name of national unity while attempting to end the tradition of slavery. I find that inspirational, not shameful. I believe the COMPLETE history should be taught. I think it is significant for people to understand...Indians practiced slavery. Middle Easterners practiced slavery. People from the Slavic regions practiced slavery. The founding fathers were but a small part of history. Teach it all.

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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    So 55 white men wrote the documents
    Yes. This is the requirement for being a founder. Fighting in a war doesn't make you a founder. To believe otherwise would be like claiming that a run of the mill suicide bomber and Osama Bin Laden are both "leaders" within Islamism because they share ideology. Countries are founded by the men who write a country's guiding documents and establish citizenship. Not by the soldier. The soldier follows personal interest. Many of the white people from the colonies who fought in the war of independence followed their economic interest (at least as far as taxation was involved). It's been established fact that many of the blacks who joined the war effort on both sides did so under the promise that they would be freed. Rhetoric aside, it is personal interest that motivates the masses. If there had been no personal gain for the majority to gain independence from the British, we would be part of the commonwealth today.

    and fought the wars, and financially supported the troops? I suppose the great minds of the Age of Reason had no input either? You know, the ones whose writings heavily influenced the FF? None of their wives supported their cause? To suppose that 55 white guys are the sole reason the USA exists today as a free country is bigotry and ignorance.
    If we were to go by this reasoning we'd have to include Nicholo Machiavelli as a Founding Father of the US.

    BTW, there was no "citizenship" at the time as there was no country....just an idea in the hearts and minds of ALL who opposed the King...
    This is the ignorance I was talking about. The colonies most definitely had citizens even at the early colonial stages and they engaged in a direct democracy of sorts. These enclaves had Governors and people willing to take up the basic tasks of keeping the community legally functioning. Once again, blacks had absolutely no access to the same legal benefits that white citizens in these enclaves had. However, let's say for one second that you're right and some blacks founded this country. Why wasn't this recognized in the immidiate post-war period? Why weren't the rights all white male citizens in the country had granted to blacks? The answer is obvious. The Founding Fathers did not believe blacks were citizens or "Founders" and as racist as it may sound I agree with them but for different reasons. Nearly 50% of the Founders were slave owners. They had no interest in making blacks citizens or including them in the political process. I argue that blacks aren't founders because they were excluded from the political process for over 100 years after the country's foundation.
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    Re: Tenn. Tea Party Wants Slavery Removed From Textbooks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Yes. This is the requirement for being a founder. Fighting in a war doesn't make you a founder. To believe otherwise would be like claiming that a run of the mill suicide bomber and Osama Bin Laden are both "leaders" within Islamism because they share ideology. Countries are founded by the men who write a country's guiding documents and establish citizenship. Not by the soldier. The soldier follows personal interest. Many of the white people from the colonies who fought in the war of independence followed their economic interest (at least as far as taxation was involved). It's been established fact that many of the blacks who joined the war effort on both sides did so under the promise that they would be freed. Rhetoric aside, it is personal interest that motivates the masses. If there had been no personal gain for the majority to gain independence from the British, we would be part of the commonwealth today.



    If we were to go by this reasoning we'd have to include Nicholo Machiavelli as a Founding Father of the US.



    This is the ignorance I was talking about. The colonies most definitely had citizens even at the early colonial stages and they engaged in a direct democracy of sorts. These enclaves had Governors and people willing to take up the basic tasks of keeping the community legally functioning. Once again, blacks had absolutely no access to the same legal benefits that white citizens in these enclaves had. However, let's say for one second that you're right and some blacks founded this country. Why wasn't this recognized in the immidiate post-war period? Why weren't the rights all white male citizens in the country had granted to blacks? The answer is obvious. The Founding Fathers did not believe blacks were citizens or "Founders" and as racist as it may sound I agree with them but for different reasons. Nearly 50% of the Founders were slave owners. They had no interest in making blacks citizens or including them in the political process. I argue that blacks aren't founders because they were excluded from the political process for over 100 years after the country's foundation.
    The states were totally subject to the King, a few intermediary levels of local government didn't end that...
    Nearly all of those leaving Europe for the new world was leaving some kind of oppression behind.
    They voted with their feet, even if they were not allowed to vote at the ballot box.
    Blacks and women couldn't vote, but to say that ALL blacks and ALL women, and all indentured servants were just along for the ride is the true ignorance being displayed here...
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