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Thread: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

  1. #91
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And once you are cured, you no longer need the medication.
    You don't but others still will. We're talking about cure not prevention. You seem to be conflating the two.

    There is a difference between a cure and a treatment. Treatment is ongoing. Cure is done once.
    As I say, there's a difference between a drug that cures and one that prevents, although, even there people would still want the preventive, like the polio or smallpox vaccine.


    Regardless of the impact. This is very short-sighted and libertarian. Things do not exist in a vaccum.
    Well there are incentives built into the free market system for companies to come up with things people want, such as a cancer cure. At worst, the profit motive and companies are amoral. Any notions of morality one way or the other are artificially assigned. The true check on corporations is not to try to ascribe some sort of conscience to them, but rather the potential for competition.
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Profit is merely an word to describe part of the situation of the exchange of value.
    If you are going to alter the definition in THIS way, it changes the argument. We have been discussing monetary profits. Are you now discussing this alteration?

    When a person goes to get medical care, both parties profit, whether or not we want to admit this.
    The medical business profits in monetary form and the sick person profits in better health.
    Hmmm... so, since the medical business profits, monetarily from the individual being sick and needing treatment, which would the medical business profit from more... a complete cure, or continuing treatment?

    It does not in any way prove that libertarianism is wrong, it's just the myopic view that people hold that they are victims of the market, rather than participants.
    People are victims of both... if we must use the word "victim".
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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  3. #93
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It depends on what type of cure it is.
    That is very relevant.

    This particular "cure" did not create immunity, it just allowed the immune system to defeat the cancer cells.
    I understand what you are saying, but we are still talking about a one shot treatment, rather than ongoing treament.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #94
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    If people were really similar to what he described, it would be the strongest argument against libertarianism that one could make!
    Wait, what? How have I described anyone (I assume you mean me)? Alls I've said is that profit is an excellent motivator. Does that seem somehow wrong to you?
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    You don't but others still will. We're talking about cure not prevention. You seem to be conflating the two.
    No. You get cancer. You receive the cure. You no longer have cancer. As opposed to... you get cancer, you get treatment. You still have cancer. You get treatment. You still have cancer. You get treatment. See what I'm getting at?

    As I say, there's a difference between a drug that cures and one that prevents, although, even there people would still want the preventive, like the polio or smallpox vaccine.
    See above. I get the difference. What I am saying is that there are THREE levels, not two: vaccine, cure, and treatment. Currently, cancer is under the third category.


    Well there are incentives built into the free market system for companies to come up with things people want, such as a cancer cure. At worst, the profit motive and companies are amoral. Any notions of morality one way or the other are artificially assigned. The true check on corporations is not to try to ascribe some sort of conscience to them, but rather the potential for competition.
    Profit motives are amoral if they live in a vaccum and do not take into consideration the impact on larger issues. For example, it might maximize profit for a company to dump waste in a local river, rather than dumping it with the larger impact of the environment and the drinking water of the local population.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #96
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    If you are going to alter the definition in THIS way, it changes the argument. We have been discussing monetary profits. Are you now discussing this alteration?
    Profit should always be considered as such.
    Speaking strictly in monetary terms when there are other forms of "profit" present is incredibly unfair and is only being used to slander my beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Hmmm... so, since the medical business profits, monetarily from the individual being sick and needing treatment, which would the medical business profit from more... a complete cure, or continuing treatment?
    Continued treatment can earn a higher profit, but that doesn't mean that the cure won't be developed.
    Because someone else will want to earn a profit from that.
    We do not live in a 1 dimensional world, where only 1 person or corporation seeks to create treatments and cures.

    There are a multitude of participants, each seeking their own profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    People are victims of both... if we must use the word "victim".
    People are participants of the market.
    Sometimes they are victims, if there has been fraud or force, but that is largely not the case.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #97
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Profit should always be considered as such.
    Speaking strictly in monetary terms when there are other forms of "profit" present is incredibly unfair and is only being used to slander my beliefs.
    No, but this is how it is presented by far more dogmatic libertarians than you.



    Continued treatment can earn a higher profit, but that doesn't mean that the cure won't be developed.
    Because someone else will want to earn a profit from that.
    We do not live in a 1 dimensional world, where only 1 person or corporation seeks to create treatments and cures.

    There are a multitude of participants, each seeking their own profit.
    There really isn't the need for treatments if you have a cure. These are two different types of medical procedures. If there is a medication that can cure my disease, why would I want to just treat it?

    People are participants of the market.
    Sometimes they are victims, if there has been fraud or force, but that is largely not the case.
    I don't agree. The healthcare insurance industry is a good example. They create practices that maximize their profit, regardless of the impact that it has on their customers or society.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #98
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, but this is how it is presented by far more dogmatic libertarians than you.
    Those are step 1 libertarians, they will either move on to further steps or wash out.
    More often than not, they wash out.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There really isn't the need for treatments if you have a cure. These are two different types of medical procedures. If there is a medication that can cure my disease, why would I want to just treat it?
    Of course, the market power behind the treatment wouldn't be there.
    The person making the cure would, unless it's a combination treatment and cure.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I don't agree. The healthcare insurance industry is a good example. They create practices that maximize their profit, regardless of the impact that it has on their customers or society.
    That's largely because we've removed the price at point of service, in my opinion.
    Instead of insurance administrators fuddling what to cover, we need individuals making those value judgments for themselves.

    Insurance needs to take somewhat of a back seat to people and their wallets.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #99
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No. You get cancer. You receive the cure. You no longer have cancer. As opposed to... you get cancer, you get treatment. You still have cancer. You get treatment. You still have cancer. You get treatment. See what I'm getting at?
    Then I have a question for you, CC. When doctors find a cancerous tumor, why do they seek to remove the whole tumor (if possible) then often follow up with chemotherapy to try to eradicate any remaining cancer cells? If ongoing treatment has such a larger potential for profit, wouldn't it make more sense to leave a few cancer cells behind to assure the need for future treatment?



    See above. I get the difference. What I am saying is that there are THREE levels, not two: vaccine, cure, and treatment. Currently, cancer is under the third category.
    But there is huge profit potential in all three.



    Profit motives are amoral if they live in a vaccum and do not take into consideration the impact on larger issues. For example, it might maximize profit for a company to dump waste in a local river, rather than dumping it with the larger impact of the environment and the drinking water of the local population.
    Hummmmm, ok, good point.
    The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mahatma Gandhi


  10. #100
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    Re: Scientists cure cancer, but no one takes notice

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Those are step 1 libertarians, they will either move on to further steps or wash out.
    More often than not, they wash out.
    Agreed. They tend to be both the most dogmatic and short-sighted of the libertarians.

    Of course, the market power behind the treatment wouldn't be there.
    The person making the cure would, unless it's a combination treatment and cure.
    Like I've been saying though, with a cure, treatment would no longer be necessary.
    That's largely because we've removed the price at point of service, in my opinion.
    Instead of insurance administrators fuddling what to cover, we need individuals making those value judgments for themselves.

    Insurance needs to take somewhat of a back seat to people and their wallets.
    I partially agree, however, I also think that the insurance companies need far more regulation to prevent the kinds of abuses going on. We are not just talking about profit... which I have no problem with. We are talking about profit at the expense of harming society as a whole.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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