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Thread: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That does nothing to change the fact that the majority of high speed rail systems are not in demand enough to not need bailouts from their respective governments.

    The majority of Amtraks lines are consistently in the red because there is no ridership.

    The Chinese HSR project isn't earning enough money to pay it's loans.
    People say they want this crap, but they don't use it.
    It's a boondoggle.
    Once again you are thinking short-term rather than long-term. Everything changes as we approach world peak oil, it will simply be too expensive in the future for consumers and our economy to continue our heavy reliance on energy inefficient transportation and freight transport by cars and trucks, as well as heating, cooling and lighting of our residential, commercial, and industrial energy uses that are the most inefficient in the industrialized world. That will put us at a disadvantage economically. This is why China, japan, and European countries are building energy efficient means of transportation, despite being more energy efficient in all the other areas as well.
    Last edited by Catawba; 05-19-11 at 06:18 AM.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You have anything to back up your opinion? They already have 7,000 miles of high-speed rail and are on target for having 10,000 miles in 2012.
    "Small wonder that the Beijing-Tianjin line, built at a cost of $46 million per mile, is losing more than $100 million per year."

    China’s train wreck - The Washington Post
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    "Small wonder that the Beijing-Tianjin line, built at a cost of $46 million per mile, is losing more than $100 million per year."

    China’s train wreck - The Washington Post
    Is this your proof to back up your opinion, someone else's opinion? You also need to read these articles before you cut and paste. It appears the biggest problem has been mismangement of the construction program. From your article:

    "Today, Liu Zhijun is ruined, and his high-speed rail project is in trouble. On Feb. 25, he was fired for “severe violations of discipline” — code for embezzling tens of millions of dollars. Seems his ministry has run up $271 billion in debt — roughly five times the level that bankrupted General Motors."


    He has been fired. Once they get their management issues under control they are back on track for being prepared better for world peak oil. Ticket prices may be high now with relatively low ridership. but that inceased just in the last year by 11.6%, but in the future when our economy is staggaring under the huge financial costs of peak oil, China will be poised to keep their economy growing.

    Again, we have to think long-term to be successful in the future.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Is this your proof to back up your opinion, someone else's opinion? You also need to read these articles before you cut and paste. It appears the biggest problem has been mismangement of the construction program. From your article:

    "Today, Liu Zhijun is ruined, and his high-speed rail project is in trouble. On Feb. 25, he was fired for “severe violations of discipline” — code for embezzling tens of millions of dollars. Seems his ministry has run up $271 billion in debt — roughly five times the level that bankrupted General Motors."


    He has been fired. Once they get their management issues under control they are back on track for being prepared better for world peak oil. Ticket prices may be high now with relatively low ridership. but that inceased just in the last year by 11.6%, but in the future when our economy is staggaring under the huge financial costs of peak oil, China will be poised to keep their economy growing.

    Again, we have to think long-term to be successful in the future.
    His opinion is accompanied with factual evidence of under performance of the system.
    Did you also read that the state had to employ more buses because people just don't want to pay the added expense of riding HSR.
    It may be faster but for the poor peasant, time is not of the essence.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    His opinion is accompanied with factual evidence of under performance of the system.
    Did you also read that the state had to employ more buses because people just don't want to pay the added expense of riding HSR.
    It may be faster but for the poor peasant, time is not of the essence.
    You and he are both thinking short term. Ridership is increasing and will much more as other forms of transportation become too expensive in the future. As ridership increases, price goes down.

    You are ignoring also what I posted before, which is most pertinent to this thread, about increasing our energy effciency:

    "A report released by ACEEE on Capitol Hill in conjunction with Senator Jeff Merkley, found that the American Power Act, recently introduced by Senators John Kerry and Joseph Lieberman, would benefit from greater emphasis on energy efficiency measures.

    It said by enhancing these provisions the number of jobs created would nearly triple, energy savings would quadruple and consumer savings would increase by about $200 per household, per year."

    Are you opposed to all forms of energy efficiency or just with transportation?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You and he are both thinking short term. Ridership is increasing and will much more as other forms of transportation become to expensive in the future. As ridership increases, price goes down.

    You are ignoring also what I posted before, which is most pertinent to this thread, about increasing our energy effciency:

    "A report released by ACEEE on Capitol Hill in conjunction with Senator Jeff Merkley, found that the American Power Act, recently introduced by Senators John Kerry and Joseph Lieberman, would benefit from greater emphasis on energy efficiency measures.

    It said by enhancing these provisions the number of jobs created would nearly triple, energy savings would quadruple and consumer savings would increase by about $200 per household, per year."

    Are you opposed to all forms of energy efficiency or just with transportation?
    It could triple jobs, it could provide consumer savings, but at what cost to the taxpayer?
    If it costs the tax payer more than the savings of the people who ride it, it is not a net savings.

    I am opposed to top down creation of infrastructure without in sight to what is actually needed.
    These problems are coming to light in the proposed designs (in the U.S.), because they are frankly, dumb as hell.

    Do think it is appropriate for them to propose taking gas tax revenue and directing it towards HSR or more realistically, slightly faster trains, than to have it go towards road and bridge repairs?

    How do you reconcile that most of the train service in the U.S. is consistently in the red?
    How do you factor that even though many countries have these train programs, a great many of them can not keep it from losing money?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Your article is wrong. Tesla conceptualized the computer internet way before the cold war.
    Since your not posting any articles.. I will post a few others..

    Despite what he may have claimed, Al Gore did not invent the Internet. The Internet was invented in the United States during the late 1950s to the 1970s by a group of researchers and scientists at the newly formed Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) after the former Soviet Union launched Sputnik. Realizing that the United States had suffered a great technological blow by allowing the USSR to hold the first successful satellite launch, ARPA set out to create a brand new technology unlike anything that had ever been done before; and the Internet was the result of their hard work.
    http://www.tech-faq.com/who-invented-the-internet.html

    The Internet was originally developed by DARPA - the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency - as a means to share information on defense research between involved universities and defense research facilities.

    Originally it was just email and FTP sites as well as the Usenet, where scientists could question and answer each other. It was originally called ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency NETwork). The concept was developed starting in 1964, and the first messages passed were between UCLA and the Stanford Research Institute in 1969. Leonard Kleinrock of MIT had published the first paper on packet switching theory in 1961. Since networking computers was new to begin with, standards were being developed on the fly. Once the concept was proven, the organizations involved started to lay out some ground rules for standardization.

    One of the most important was the communications protocol, TCP/IP, developed by Vint Cerf and Robert Kahn in 1974. Robert Metcalfe is credited with Ethernet, which is the basic communication standard in networked computers.

    Tim Berners-Lee, who perhaps specified technological applicability and/or linguistic construction of HTML while working at CERN, is chiefly credited for the ease of use and wide public adoption of the web. His website is: w3.org.

    Al Gore really did have a substantial part in the US legal framework and governmental issues related to the Internet; he never said he invented it.

    There wasn't just ONE person who invented the Internet. The Internet is just a way to view files and information that someone puts onto a server. The Internet is just a way to access the information.

    Leonard Kleinrock was the first person to write a paper on the idea of packet switching (which is essential for the Internet to work. He wrote this idea in 1961.
    Answers.com - Who invented the Internet

    Oddly?? Your guy Tesla isn't named anywhere?? Granted these articles do give slightly different accounts.. But both show government involvement..

    As for highspeed trains?? I am not sure what to say?? You say they are a joke but don't qualify you reasoning?? Highspeed rail would be awsome in a lot of areas.. Seattle to Portland.. L.A. to San Francisco.. Houston to Dallas... I could go on.. But there is literally a ton of reasons to build these.. Business travelers would use them.. People might live in one city and commute to the other.. It would be good for the job market.. Not to mention create jobs!! Do you know anything about Japan?? Before the quake?? Trains are awsome and they aren't in decline else where.. Start posting links with your grand remarks..

    High-speed rail is all the rage: here, there and everywhere*|*Newsdesk.org

    Enjoy the read..

  8. #28
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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It could triple jobs, it could provide consumer savings, but at what cost to the taxpayer?
    A savings of $200 dollars a year!

    If it costs the tax payer more than the savings of the people who ride it, it is not a net savings.
    I would agree with not hiring a crook to be the head of the Construction project, which was part of China's problem. And again, you have to act now with energy efficiency because if you wait until our economy is too poor from the heavy cost of peak oil, it may be too late too recover.

    I am opposed to top down creation of infrastructure without in sight to what is actually needed.
    These problems are coming to light in the proposed designs (in the U.S.), because they are frankly, dumb as hell.

    Energy efficiency is not something new. It is the cheapest method of dealing with the energy crisis and the US is less efficient then most of the rest of the industrialized world. That is why other countries, especially China are gaining on us economically.

    Do think it is appropriate for them to propose taking gas tax revenue and directing it towards HSR or more realistically, slightly faster trains, than to have it go towards road and bridge repairs?
    Since the tax is for transportation, hell yes I am for it. I am for anything that increases our efficiency, creates jobs, and makes us better prepared to weather the coming energy crisis.

    How do you reconcile that most of the train service in the U.S. is consistently in the red?
    Because we have been subsidizing the price of gas through general tax funds in the form of subsidies to the oil companies. If people in the US had to pay for gas what many of the European countries pay, we would have higher ridership as well. And again, the further we get beyond peak oil the higher the gas prices are going to get.

    How do you factor that even though many countries have these train programs, a great many of them can not keep it from losing money?
    Because they save so much in energy costs and in the future will mean the difference between a growing economy and a failing economy. They are thinking long-term, and I don't see them abandoning the train systems in favor of more cars and trucks on the road.

    Why are you opposed to our making our residential, commercial, and industrial uses of energy more efficient? Don't you see how that is a disadvantage to a country trying to grow its economy? Don't you see how the high energy costs together with our inefficient use of it are hurting our economy now? Now imagine what it will be like in the near future when energy costs are twice what they are now. What effect do you think that will have on our economy?
    Last edited by Catawba; 05-19-11 at 07:07 AM.
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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It could triple jobs, it could provide consumer savings, but at what cost to the taxpayer?
    If it costs the tax payer more than the savings of the people who ride it, it is not a net savings.
    I am just curious?? Do you have any clue how much tax revenue a train system can generate?? From riders to workers?? Do you realize that with your view, Hoover damn would have never been build.. The initial cost would have been to great.. That is why they call it investment spending.. There is no better way for our government to spend money than infrastructure spending.. Investing in our nations future.. If we sit and do nothing like republicans want.. Pretty soon the whitehouse will be in either China or Saudi Arabia.. We need to act now and invest in our nations future.. That is the only way we stay on top..
    Last edited by DemonMyst; 05-19-11 at 07:10 AM.

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    Re: Is Congress quietly set for a jobs compromise?

    The economic viability of high speed rail is dependent upon metros in close geographic proximity of each other. Other wise, the upkeep kills you as they more line you have, the greater the upkeep in materials and manpower. The place where it would therefore be most feasible is on the east coast in the NY/Boston/DC metro corridor with the possible addition of Philly and Pittsburg. The problem is the government has been propping up the railway industry forever. They need to have a model whereby they actually make money or they shouldnt even consider building. St Louis to Chicago? No, bad idea. Not enough customers to make it work. West Coast? Possibly disastrous in terms of the effects earthquakes can have on the costs and safety. West Coast Washington? Yeah, possible.

    Just a reference to the metro thing...thats why it works well in Japan, its a small geographic area that allows enormous numbers of people to move in and out of the metros each day without increasing an already bad traffic congestion.

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