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Thread: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

  1. #21
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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I think NATO and other countries should honestly just stay out of other peoples civil wars....
    Yeah we should wait until those civil wars cross borders in the form of refugees and terror so that more nations are intimately involved and the issue is far more dangerous and expensive. This is not the past where we could watch unchecked opression, civil war and genocide dominoe into mass wars that suck us in. This is the future. In an escallating globalized world where economies and trades rely upon regional stability like never before, along with the fact that information is blazing across the world at never before speeds, we can no longer get away with secretly supporting a dictator to "keep the peace." Democracy is the future. In a world where 189 democracies have been created since 1900 is there any wonder why dictators like Mugabe and Mubarak pretend to hold elections?

    On another note, this rise against the oppressor throughout the MENA region in the hopes to create democracy is absolutely what this "War on Terror" is about. Have you honestly fooled yourself into thinking that mass Islamic terror was going to end just because a scared old man was being hunted? This has always been regional and generational. You know when people ignorantly stated that we couldn't "bomb" them into democracy? Well, that was them being stupid and near sighted because all they could see was Iraq and Afghanistan. They lacked vision and their racially bigotted outlook towards this region insisted that they couldn't do it at all. The mass movement going on all over is exactly what was eventually going to happen because in the end people are people and they all want what is best for their families. Dictators are the past. And Americans, especially Europeans, can't get away with demanding apathy and a stand offish stature after hundreds of years of colonial and Cold War disruptions, meddling and maintaining.

    On another note, American security has always relied upon the stability of foriegn regions. It was true when we had to go out and free the Mediterranean from piracy (Barbary Pirates Wars) so that we could get our trades through when Europeans were more than willing to simply pay ransoms. It was true when Europeans created a World War that eventually threatened our trades and despite our efforts against, got sucked in. It was true when Europe again started a World War and couldn't deal with their own mess in their own lands (and stolen territories elsewhere) and eventually threatened our Atlantic trades and wound up sucking us back across the ocean. Why do you think "Yugoslavia" was so important? Did we really want to watch Europe ignore it until it eventually created another unstable situation that would suck us in when it was deadlier and more expensive? And it is true today. For over two decades we ignored the MENA as we pretended all those Cold War dictators were going to forever "keep the peace" by forcing the tribes (that should never have been forced together behind bad unnatural borders by Europeans in the first place) to behave under oppression and brutality so that we can get our oil without too much disruption. We pretended that kicking Saddam Hussein back into Iraq was a victory, because in the temporary end we maintained a sort of stability by maintaining his throne in Baghdad. Never mind that thousands starved to death during our humane UN sanctions (military as a last resort and all). Never mind that this so called "stability" was exponentially creating more and more bad blood and hatred towards the U.S., which is the scapegoat for these dictators and their hand picked Mullahs. Never mind that when most Muslims in the MENA region speak bad on the U.S. that they are mostly dissapointed in our two faced treatment of them (you know...preaching about liberty, democracy, and religious freedom but doing nothing to balance the power away from "our" former dictators.) And now as they rise up and do exactly as we need them to do in order to create a true stability in this very important region of the world Americans choose to state things like "none of our business" and "stay out of it?" Well, we've been in their business since we inherited this wrecked out world from the Europeans who made it wrong. We don't get to pretend otherwise today as if we bear no responsibility to live up to our rhetoric. More and more Americans are sounding like Europeans as they deny their past and their sense of duty.

    The most powerful nation in history with the most powerful military in history with the most powerful non-military tools in it's arsenol chooses to watch unhealthy regions go to hell in the hopes that it won't affect us? This defies history. Way to ensure a deadlier mission for the troop when mulitple nations are sucked into the fray.

    "We the People" mean that we need to start reacting and supporting the globe's people, not their decrepit governments who insist on an America that supports them. And decades after providing weapons and finances to maintain stability in this region means that we bear responsibility to the people underneath we pretended didn't exist. You know...the kind of people that create terror organizations that mostly slaughter their own fellow Muslims, but occassionally murder our troops abroad and maybe knock down a building or two in New York. Or do we still want to believe that hunting down and killing Bin Laden solved the problem?

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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by katsung47 View Post
    Itís obviously a pre-planned plot.
    Only to those who need their lack of morality validated by seeking any greedy conspiracy to illigetimize an effort. Of coure, in the mean time Libyans are trying to get out from under a dictator, but **** them, right? We prefer our twisted hand wringing to the wider issue at hand.

    You see lines on a map. This is convenient so that you can separate these countries and pretend that one has nothing to do with the other. This also allows you the ease for which you can dig up conspiracy and intrigue. Somehow there's dastardly business going on.

    Here is fact number 1: Always in every single war and conflict, will there be people and corporations there to make money. Get over it. If you stop your focus right here then you will always miss the greater picture.

    Here is fact number 2: To the people in this region who's tribes are divided around unnatural borders created by Europeans and who's tribes are shoved together and forced to tolerate, these lines on a map do not separate them as much as you think. This is why the Arab Sunni Tribe (meaning the religious biggie) from Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Syria, etc. are all chanting the same thing one by one. What's good for the tribe is good for the tribe and they finally recognize it. Are you really trying to pretend that local business mafias and absent local corporations are individually setting out to hatch plots? Once again, don't let fact number 1 blind you from greater happenings. A oil rich Middle Eastern/North African region (MENA) is far more stable under democracies than under dictators always under threat from the people and from neighbors. And maybe some people along the way will make things better for themselves along the way, huh?

    I wish to feed my daughter a good meal. Does this mean that secretly I just want to look like a good Dad? Never mind that my daughter is fed?

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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    France and Britain can't escalate their operations so as to put another 10 sorties in the air, a day?
    You need to read and understand what Mancs Skipper said about the request for extra sorties. They can't just escalate without the other members agreeing.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That confirms that if there was a real war, France and Britain would be the last ones we could count to help fight it.

    This is why it is so important that the United States maintain such a strong military.
    Please remember not to invite us to spill our boys blood alongside US troops next time you have a war then. Iraq, Afghanistan etc - we should have let you guys go it alone.

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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The statement was made at a European Ministers meeting for a reason. Britain and France are seeking extra support for a further 10 missions per day from their European NATO allies. They are aware that the Americantards are unwilling, which will make President Obama politically reluctant to do so.
    You got a lot of nerve given the amount of support the US has given NATO since its inception. The UK is the only NATO country over there that deserves an ounce of respect for their role in NATO.
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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    You need to read and understand what Mancs Skipper said about the request for extra sorties. They can't just escalate without the other members agreeing.



    Please remember not to invite us to spill our boys blood alongside US troops next time you have a war then. Iraq, Afghanistan etc - we should have let you guys go it alone.
    I don't know what that has to do with what he said.
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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    I don't know what that has to do with what he said.
    I agree, you don't.

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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    You need to read and understand what Mancs Skipper said about the request for extra sorties. They can't just escalate without the other members agreeing.
    I doubt that's true. I believe the truth is, that the French and British militaries are too weak to handle this little operation.



    Please remember not to invite us to spill our boys blood alongside US troops next time you have a war then. Iraq, Afghanistan etc - we should have let you guys go it alone.
    As much help as ya'll were, we practically did go it alone.

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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I agree, you don't.
    Did I hit a nerve? What you posted really didn't have anything to do with what he said, which was critical of the UK and France's ability to fight wars. Why didn't you confront that point?
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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I doubt that's true. I believe the truth is, that the French and British militaries are too weak to handle this little operation.
    So the sorties flown at the moment are actually by American's in planes painted up to look like British and French aircraft. Got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    -- As much help as ya'll were, we practically did go it alone.
    Unfortunately, our leaders don't listen to you and they send our guys over. I hope the voices of Americans like you are broadcast to more and more European countries next time there's a conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanten Janubi View Post
    Did I hit a nerve?
    Not in the slightest. You posted a comment and I agreed with it, why would that hit a nerve?

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    Re: Libya: Nato must do more, say France and UK

    [QUOTE=apdst;1059414751]France and Britain can't escalate their operations so as to put another 10 sorties in the air, a day?

    That confirms that if there was a real war, France and Britain would be the last ones we could count to help fight it.
    The 10,000 British troops in Afghanistan might as well come home then?

    This is why it is so important that the United States maintain such a strong military.
    The United States need maintain its capabilities in line with its foreign policy.

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    RIP THE EUROPEAN FORUM 2016

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