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Thread: Union membership down again in 2010

  1. #81
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    No, the unions were making lip service to prevent Americans from disliking them too much. If we don't reduce their power, then they will keep overdemanding after the economy recovers. I'm not against letting public unions negotiate for concern such as sexual harrassment, but then I'm talking about sexual harrassment. Not having to watch students eat lunch. I'm against letting public unions negotiate for wages and benefits. That was what the Wisconsin bill was about, but they can still ask for higher wages, but then they have to consult the people. They can't bribe politicans and therefore the Wisconsin bill is so unpopular.
    again, the public union in wisconsin agreed to wage and benefit modifications, eliminating the need to eliminate the union. that the republicans instead went forward to abolish union representation rights in that state speaks directly to the real republican intent
    it was more payoff to a corporate America
    no other way around it
    that we see it happening in other republican controlled states is only more evidence ... at least for those willing to see it
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  2. #82
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Discussion like this strike me as being very akin to a discussion with veteran ball players joined in by fans who never played pro ball. The professionals who actually did the job have a level of both knowledge and experience far beyond the fans but do you think that stops Joe Blow from telling Albert All Star how to play the game? No way.

    Here we have people who have never been in a union pontificating about things they have never experienced.
    Here we have people who have never taught in a public school or worked in a public sector union job pontificating about things they never experienced.
    Now combine those two together and you have much of the posts in this thread.

    Its like listening to Stevie Wonder talks about the wonders of the colors of the spectrum. At some point, credibility becomes a factor in these discussions and there are too many people who have garnered their opinions from fiction, hearsay and just plain false information to be credible on the issue.

    We live in the age of political extremist ideology as opposed to pragmatics and practical experience. And much of this 'debate' illustrates that sad reality.
    nominated as post-of-the month
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  3. #83
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    again, the public union in wisconsin agreed to wage and benefit modifications, eliminating the need to eliminate the union. that the republicans instead went forward to abolish union representation rights in that state speaks directly to the real republican intent
    it was more payoff to a corporate America
    no other way around it
    that we see it happening in other republican controlled states is only more evidence ... at least for those willing to see it
    Not sure if you know this is untrue or you really believe the junk you post.

    Local unions had to agree to any changes and most if not all DID NOT.

    This site is getting boring reading posts with such flawed logic.

    I am not good on the computer and fell upon this site.

    Can anyone here suggest alternative sites where one can find good honest debate from thoughtful people. If so it would be appreciated.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Not sure if you know this is untrue or you really believe the junk you post.
    and yet you are without the ability to render my arguments as anything other than valid. my sense is that you are experiencing extreme frustration and/or may need to lay off the kool aid

    Local unions had to agree to any changes and most if not all DID NOT.
    not certain how you are able to make this conclusion, since the locals never got an opportunity to make a decision about the matter. i am guessing you are engaging in more specious speculation or have adopted the talking points of some ignorant reich wing propaganda site

    This site is getting boring reading posts with such flawed logic.
    we disagree again. i find it vastly entertaining, despite (or possibly because of) the array of those on the right who are without the ability to defend their often stupid positions

    I am not good on the computer and fell upon this site.
    you have fallen and can't get up. too late. that expression has already been used

    Can anyone here suggest alternative sites where one can find good honest debate from thoughtful people. If so it would be appreciated.
    while it possesses none of the characteristics you insist you are seeking, from reading your posts, i would recommend you to the political forum. you should fit in well over there
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and yet you are without the ability to render my arguments as anything other than valid. my sense is that you are experiencing extreme frustration and/or may need to lay off the kool aid


    not certain how you are able to make this conclusion, since the locals never got an opportunity to make a decision about the matter. i am guessing you are engaging in more specious speculation or have adopted the talking points of some ignorant reich wing propaganda site


    we disagree again. i find it vastly entertaining, despite (or possibly because of) the array of those on the right who are without the ability to defend their often stupid positions


    you have fallen and can't get up. too late. that expression has already been used


    while it possesses none of the characteristics you insist you are seeking, from reading your posts, i would recommend you to the political forum. you should fit in well over there
    You are good at trying to flame and bait. Sometimes I even fall for it. Not sure if you are a moderator, or they just think like you so they put up with it. I think it is fair to say that I despise what people like you do to a site whch should be enjoyable for people who want reasonable debate.

    Perhaps yu are just ill informed or uninformed, not your diatribe is boring. Little value from anything you write in my view.

    Perhaps the site uses people like you same as the people who poke bulls before the matadore gets into the ring.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba
    it was more payoff to a corporate America
    no other way around it
    that we see it happening in other republican controlled states is only more evidence ... at least for those willing to see it
    What?

    the public union in wisconsin agreed to wage and benefit modifications, eliminating the need to eliminate the union.
    Short term solution only.
    Last edited by Henrin; 04-09-11 at 10:19 AM.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    What?



    Short term solution only.
    then i take it you are of the opinion that collective bargaining must be abolished as a long term solution to the state's present fiscal shortfall
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    again, the public union in wisconsin agreed to wage and benefit modifications, eliminating the need to eliminate the union. that the republicans instead went forward to abolish union representation rights in that state speaks directly to the real republican intent
    it was more payoff to a corporate America
    no other way around it
    that we see it happening in other republican controlled states is only more evidence ... at least for those willing to see it
    Please read what I wrote. I didn't say they didn't agree to the wage and benefit modifications. I said that if the politicans are interested in keeping benefits for teachers at reasonable levels, and balance future budgets. Not just next year budget. Then they will need to reduce the power of public unions.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Please read what I wrote. I didn't say they didn't agree to the wage and benefit modifications. I said that if the politicans are interested in keeping benefits for teachers at reasonable levels, and balance future budgets. Not just next year budget. Then they will need to reduce the power of public unions.
    that is not the solution ... at least not a good one (but yes, quite effective in both reducing salaries and benefits and the desire of teachers to teach in that state)
    the more appropriate solution is to assure that the employer is represented by competent individuals the next time they engage in contract negotiations with the union
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that is not the solution ... at least not a good one (but yes, quite effective in both reducing salaries and benefits and the desire of teachers to teach in that state)
    the more appropriate solution is to assure that the employer is represented by competent individuals the next time they engage in contract negotiations with the union
    It problably won't be vey easy to get competent politicans. I don't think your solution will work.

    To reduce the power of public union is a good solution if you are not a hard-core liberal, because liberals benefit from having strong unions (at least in the short term). However, it is good for America. Do you think that bad teachers shouldn't be fired? Do you think all teachers should earn the same, irrespective of their school and their work performance?

    We should give them the market price, you might get a higher wage in another state, but it is really hard to become a teacher there. Texas has much lower wages (but better performance than Wisconsin when you compare racial groups) and teachers are not running for the hills. Teachers at bad schools should get a higher wage than teachers at good schools to attract the better teachers to bad schools. If the wage is based on the market, then it is in everyone's interest to make sure teachers have good teaching conditions. If you have better conditions, then you will attract more teachers. Problem is, unions are against everything I mentioned. America has a poverty rate of 14%, why should we spend more money on rich teachers when we could spend the money on reducing poverty? Or reducing the deficit?

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