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Thread: Union membership down again in 2010

  1. #41
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. the only time i'm aware of goernment interating with cheating teachers is when they got caught cheating and were subsequently fired.

    2. college professors often teach to classes of 200 people. i somehow doubt that a highschool teacher will suffer mental overload and death if he is forced to lecture a class of 35 rather than 30. the "crowded classroom" thing is a canard, anyway; used by teachers unions to get more funding.

    3. longer hours? longer hours? teachers work - what - 7 hours a day? 8? from one public employee to another, they can suck that one up.

    4. there is nothing wrong with teachers being used to monitor lunchrooms, there is nothing remotely abusive about that whatsoever, and the fact that you think it is, is hilarious.

    5. the dangerous work conditions i will buy. which is why i would pay more to teachers willing to work in dangerous schools (the teachers unions, of course, shoot down the idea of paying teachers extra for behavioral incentives). however, i will only be willing to do this if they can be fired should they fail to perform there. which brings us to point #...

    6. if you are fired for arbitrary reasons, usually you can sue and make quite a chunk of change. but public teachers can hardly be fired at all. the cost and trouble for firing a public teachers is legendary.

    oh, and getting fired? that's not abuse. that's the entity that hired you deciding it had made a mistake, and correcting that mistake. out in the real world private workers recognize that if they don't perform, that's the result. only in the public sector is getting fired "just" because you suck at your job "abuse".
    you make almost everything sound much simpler then it really is (except for #5). i've experienced all of it much differently.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    you make almost everything sound much simpler then it really is (except for #5). i've experienced all of it much differently.
    Then please enlighten us as to how these issues constitute taking advantage.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  3. #43
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    you make almost everything sound much simpler then it really is (except for #5). i've experienced all of it much differently.
    *gasp* why..... playdrive..... were you used as a lunchroom administrator while serving in a school?

    ... you poor thing .... are you okay? have the nightmares ended?


    i mean, yeah, i got used as sniper bait while serving in our nations' wars, but man; lunch room administration.... that's tough. hope you're okay, brother.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Then please enlighten us as to how these issues constitute taking advantage.
    one of the things I've learned on this board is that when someone wants you explain with an air of condescension, they're not really interested in understanding - so i'm not really interested in wasting my time.

    like i said, in many schools and districts, the problems i highlighted are not as easily dealt with as cpwill perceives it to be from my knowledge and experience of the system. if you haven't had those experiences, then we're going to disagree. fortunately, for people who've seen what i've, unions still have their power.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    *gasp* why..... playdrive..... were you used as a lunchroom administrator while serving in a school?

    ... you poor thing .... are you okay? have the nightmares ended?


    i mean, yeah, i got used as sniper bait while serving in our nations' wars, but man; lunch room administration.... that's tough. hope you're okay, brother.
    no, i've never taught before. i grew up in family of inner-city educators. teach in an inner-city school in Chicago for 10 years and come back. until then, your experiences are too limited to understand my arguments.

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    thank you for your reply to my question directed at another poster ... who posited that public unions are problematic
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. subverts democracy by giving a non-represenatitve, elected, or accountable entity veto power over the decisions of the representatives of the people
    unions, by federal law must be democratic organizations

    public sector unions do NOT have veto power. they can only negotiate

    2. creates powerful pressure groups with incentives to push for unsustainable growth and spending on the part of government, who are also uniquely positioned to place intense pressure on those in the political structure least able to resist them.
    yes, collective bargaining does give the employee more negotiation leverage than if each employee negotiated with the employer separately
    the union can ask for anything it wants ... and stupid union representatives can ask for that which is unsustainable ... but the employer has no obligation to do anything more than engage in 'good faith' bargaining
    if the employer agrees to contract terms it cannot afford, then that indicates the employer selected the wrong person(s) to represent the employer in negotiations
    please note. that means the unsound outcome is attributable to management's poor decision making
    the union, collectively, has an opportunity to be a formidable political advocate or opponent. but that is no different than any other advocacy groups, including PACs, corporations and foreign entities/governments
    3. private sector unions are limited in their sapping of a corporation by a simple factor; they want the company to survive and the company must be profitable in order to do so. public sector unions are under no such constraint, as those who they are negotiating with have only gain and no pain in endlessly extending and increasing their benefits. the taxpayer pays, but that's because he is forced to by law.
    it would appear by your post that you do not hold the UAW in any way responsible for the demise of the US auto industry. i would insist otherwise. that such private sector union actually diminished the future of the auto industry in the USA because its contract terms caused the American car manufacturer to no longer be globally competitive
    in the instance of wisconsin, we saw the public sector unions quickly concede to wage and benefit reductions ... once it was made apparent that the state could no longer afford to pay the amounts it had previously obligated itself to pay
    that reality causes your position above to be found lacking
    4. these above factors combined have led to our current situation; where public sector unions and their associated costs are threatning to bankrupt not only multiple counties and municipalities, but full, semi-soveriegn states.
    what we know from what you have stated is that inept employer representatives often bind the public sector employer to contract terms which should be found inappropriate
    if you examine that circumstance you should then recognize that the blame for such situation rests exclusively with the employer - NOT the union
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    this makes NO sense
    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    Where taking about the government here, it's artificial,
    excuse me? the government is artificial
    for something which is not real, it commands a LOT of power
    ... employers dont have a big choice in the matter,
    the employers are the ones who hire, fire and assign work. that would appear to indicate they have a massive amount of choice in the matter
    ... and when they do... it's because it is a Union structure that benifits the people who are most closely tied with it.
    confusing. you insist that employers don't have much "control" when it encounters the employees' union but when they do it's because of the union's structure
    what you have posted above is unfathomable
    What does have a big choice is our budget
    our budget has choice?
    ... and congress,
    yes, congress has choice (usually little direction and even less integrity, but it does have choice.) now let's see if that (obvious) fact is in any way meaningful to this discussion
    ... and that should be THE way to improve government workers needs.
    so, you want us to adopt your view that congress has choice and by using its choice we should expect the government employer to improve workers' needs
    but that implies that the government knows what the workers' needs are. that the workers found it necessary to form a union to speak of its needs - with a singular voice - tells us that the government is unable to understand the employees' needs
    Talk to them if you want more funding for teacher's, construction, etc. ,
    ok, who is them?
    but if we can't afford it...
    a reasonable person would conclude your sentence by saying but if we can't afford it, then we should not obligate ourselves to pay for it. notice how that didn't happen. the inept employer representative(s) agreed to contract terms with the union which are untenable
    now tell us why that is the union's fault and not management's
    ... either to bad so sad,
    this is what cannot happen is labor-management bargaining. each side is required to negotiate in good faith. taking a position 'adopt what we want or too bad, so sad, is not found to be good faith bargaining
    ... or cut other programs in order to have more money for funding.
    yes. if you signed a contract you later realize you cannot afford, then you cut out other expenditures to generate the monies needed, and/or you seek a renegotiation of the contract terms ... but what should not be done is unilaterally, and arbitrarily, eliminate the employees' ability to collectively bargain
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    You have some examples of how the government takes advantage of public employees.....??



    .
    yes. since 2003 our union has attempted to prevent the employer from working its employees without compensation
    it took until Christmas season last year to realize $7.6 million in back pay compensation and penalties
    no employee alone would have been able to afford to litigate this matter to reach such conclusion as was realized collectively
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  9. #49
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    2nded. Because I understand the incentives for an employer to pinch pennies, but government never seems to care to. So what incentive would a government employer have to take advantage of his employees?
    the employer has an insufficient budget to perform the tasks management wants to achieve
    the employee is then forced to work additional hours - without compensation - to make those objectives result
    it can also cause the employer to direct the employees to perform tasks at grade levels above that for which they are hired/employed
    without union involvement: the employees work uncompensated hours and/or work at higher levels than the salary they receive


    the employer may want field visits performed but is without adequate travel dollars necessary to achieve those field visits. if the employee fails to perform them - despite there being no travel money available - then the employee receives a poor performance review. result: employee pays for travel out of pocket
    without union involvement: the employees continue to subsidize the government by paying for official business travel out of their own pockets
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  10. #50
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    Re: Union membership down again in 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    1) The goonion payback to politicians who agree to raise wages in exchange, creating an undesirable positive feedback loop that cuts out the people the politican was actually elected to represent, the man working in the private sector paying the taxes for the goonion's free ride.
    so, the citizens elected a crook who is on the take
    and we should eliminate unions because of it
    come back with some logic

    2) see the first one, that was enough.
    to prove you are absolutely clueless about this topic
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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