Unions threaten Business

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
In your mind the perception is that teachers and police need unions, there is nothing I can provide that will change your mind nor do I care to. The numbers speak for themselves, union membership has been declining for years. My experience in dealing with unions and some very good employees in those unions form the basis of my statements. Many good people left the unions when they realized they were being held down. You don't believe it, tough, believe what you want and never reach your ultimate potential.

Where is your data to back up your claims? My mind responds to facts - all I see is empty claims and personal attacks. Where are your facts? Where is the evidence? You can't expect a person to believe your claims without data to back them up.

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive said:
Where is your data to back up your claims? My mind responds to facts - all I see is empty claims and personal attacks. Where are your facts? Where is the evidence? You can't expect a person to believe your claims without data to back them up.

Where is yours? I really don't care what you believe but your opinion is hardly fact except in your mind. When you grow up you will realize that you never knew it all as a youngster. Get out in the real world and find out for yourself.

Originally Posted by theplaydrive
Most teachers and police officers don't go into their profession for the money...

randel · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
Where is yours? I really don't care what you believe but your opinion is hardly fact except in your mind. When you grow up you will realize that you never knew it all as a youngster. Get out in the real world and find out for yourself.

:lamo you should really apply this post to yourself...:lamo

randel · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
Right, your cup is half empty and mine is half full. If you are as good as you think you are, you don't need a union to be rewarded for your efforts. A lot of good people in unions are always being held down.

If you think this country is a union you really are out of touch with reality. This country is 50 independent sovereign states with their own set of laws and leadership. They are united under a Constitution but that doesn't change their independence and as our founders believed concentration of power at the state and local level. The purpose of the United States was for protection not equal outcome which unions try to promote.

exactly who are you to determine if i need a union or not? i have already explained to you that you labor under a false assumptiion...you believe that if you work hard, your employer will reward you...sometimes yes, sometimes no..there is no guarantee that hard work will see that you are rewarded...i've worked places where those of us would bust our humps, and not get squat, but yet, those who sucked the boss's ass were rewarded very well...i don't play that game. you don't seem to believe that there are employers out there who take advantage of their employees.....you need a reality check.

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive said:
Most teachers and police officers don't go into their profession for the money...

yeah most teachers do it because

1) they don't have the grades to get into the more competitive professions like medicine and law

2)they don't have to work near the hours

deltabtry · Apr 2, 2011

TurtleDude said:
yeah most teachers do it because

1) they don't have the grades to get into the more competitive professions like medicine and law

2)they don't have to work near the hours

Good point, considering a lot of teachers in the Boston area have failed some basic employment test, although i will not group all of them in this category.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
Where is yours? I really don't care what you believe but your opinion is hardly fact except in your mind. When you grow up you will realize that you never knew it all as a youngster. Get out in the real world and find out for yourself.

I have not made a claim about whether the merit system works for teachers and police officers. I have not made a claim about . I don't think I know it all, which is why I'm asking you for facts. Where are your facts? Teach me.

As far as my claim, yours would be much easier to prove than mine, nonetheless here's proof enough:

Principals and new teachers in the survey were asked about their greatest sources of satisfaction and of stress and worry in their careers. Despite their different roles and different levels of experience, the top most satisfying aspects of being a teacher and being a principal are identical. Both teachers and principals are most likely to mention the students as their greatest sources of satisfaction (75% of new teachers and 77% of principals). The next most common reason cited by both groups is a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment (35% of new teachers and 35% of principals).

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED488837.pdf

So new teachers see students as the most satisfying part of their job...not money. Yours is easier to prove because you can just look at performance statistics and not rely on people's subjective responses to surveys.

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

randel said:
exactly who are you to determine if i need a union or not? i have already explained to you that you labor under a false assumptiion...you believe that if you work hard, your employer will reward you...sometimes yes, sometimes no..there is no guarantee that hard work will see that you are rewarded...i've worked places where those of us would bust our humps, and not get squat, but yet, those who sucked the boss's ass were rewarded very well...i don't play that game. you don't seem to believe that there are employers out there who take advantage of their employees.....you need a reality check.

Look, I don't care if you work for a union or not, obviously you need it as you apparently don't have the initiative or drive to make it on your own, so be it. Where is your proof that I labor under a false assumption. Ever deal with OCAW? Ever have a union thug throw a lit cigarette at a tanker truck you were driving in? Ever have someone shoot at you also while in a fully loaded tanker? Ever have an employer throw a punch at you for questioning why the protests?

Your cup is always half empty and never accept personally responsibility for anything. Of course there are employers out there that take advantage of employees just like there are union employees that take advantage of their employer so what is your point? What is wrong with keeping your job based upon performance? What is wrong with getting an education on that job and then selling your services to the highest bidder? Why do you need a union to negotiate for you? Are you afraid to compete on your own merits? Weren't you looking for a job when you found the one you got?

There are some very good union employees and I have seen union employees leave the union and become managers making more than they ever made in the union. How can that be?

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive;1059386599]I have not made a claim about whether the merit system works for teachers and police officers. I have not made a claim about . I don't think I know it all, which is why I'm asking you for facts. Where are your facts? Teach me.

Where are your facts that the cost of living in each area of the country is the same? You made the claim that MOST teachers and Police don't take their jobs based upon pay. That being the case why then do they need a union?

As far as my claim, yours would be much easier to prove than mine, nonetheless here's proof enough:

Does cost of living play into wages? Does it cost as much to live in TX as it does in Illinios? Why would a teacher in TX require as much as a teacher in Illinois?

Principals and new teachers in the survey were asked about their greatest sources of satisfaction and of stress and worry in their careers. Despite their different roles and different levels of experience, the top most satisfying aspects of being a teacher and being a principal are identical. Both teachers and principals are most likely to mention the students as their greatest sources of satisfaction (75% of new teachers and 77% of principals). The next most common reason cited by both groups is a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment (35% of new teachers and 35% of principals).

Good, then why do teachers need a union?

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
Where are your facts that the cost of living in each area of the country is the same? You made the claim that MOST teachers and Police don't take their jobs based upon pay. That being the case why then do they need a union?

Does cost of living play into wages? Does it cost as much to live in TX as it does in Illinios? Why would a teach in TX require as much as a teacher in Illinois?

Good, then why do teachers need a union?

they don't-by law public employees are treated the same and have full title VII, Rehab or ADA and ADEA protection

Lord Tammerlain · Apr 2, 2011

deltabtry said:
Well they are thousands of examples out there for and against, the bottom line is that everyone in a free country has the right to work, especially when it comes to the government. They should be able to do so with being forced or coerced into joining a union. Now for one more example, this would be the oil industry from the roustabout on up.

So when were you forced to join a union?

Never has anyone in the US been forced to join a union. People may have been required to join a union if they wanted a particular job at a particular company. They were not forced to accept that job they chose it of their own free will

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
Where are your facts that the cost of living in each area of the country is the same? You made the claim that MOST teachers and Police don't take their jobs based upon pay. That being the case why then do they need a union?

Does cost of living play into wages? Does it cost as much to live in TX as it does in Illinios? Why would a teacher in TX require as much as a teacher in Illinois?

Stop changing the subject and the goal posts. Where are your facts to support your claims about merits and unions? I have given you facts, show me yours. TEACH ME!

Good, then why do teachers need a union?

I never said teachers (or police officers) needed unions - I never made a claim about that. You said that they don't. I'm asking you to support your claim. Where are your facts? Where is your evidence?

By the way, here's even more evidence from me that teachers don't join for the money. I keep giving you facts. Where are yours?

A majority of teachers are dissatisfied with their salaries. Two-thirds (64%) report that their salaries are not fair for the work they do. Elementary school teachers in particular feel this way (67% vs. 60% of secondary school teachers).

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED496558.pdf

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

TurtleDude said:
yeah most teachers do it because

1) they don't have the grades to get into the more competitive professions like medicine and law

2)they don't have to work near the hours

Where is your data and evidence to back that claim up?

Remember, I haven't made a claim about why teachers go into the profession. I've only said that they don't do it for the money and I have evidence:

A majority of teachers are dissatisfied with their salaries. Two-thirds (64%) report that their salaries are not fair for the work they do. Elementary school teachers in particular feel this way (67% vs. 60% of secondary school teachers).

Show me your evidence or else it's just another B.S. claim.

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2011

Lord Tammerlain said:
So when were you forced to join a union?

Never has anyone in the US been forced to join a union. People may have been required to join a union if they wanted a particular job at a particular company. They were not forced to accept that job they chose it of their own free will

that's pretty lame

like saying no one has been forced to pay a poll tax unless they wanted to vote

TurtleDude · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive said:
Where is your data and evidence to back that claim up?

Remember, I haven't made a claim about why teachers go into the profession. I've only said that they don't do it for the money and I have evidence:

Show me your evidence or else it's just another B.S. claim.

GIYLF

that you demand proof of stuff that anyone with an IQ of at least 90 understands is pathetic. Is that your way of responding to stuff you don't like?

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive;1059386621]Stop changing the subject and the goal posts. Where are your facts to support your claims about merits and unions? I have given you facts, show me yours. TEACH ME!

Your so called facts are about job appreciation and not anything to do with pay and benefits which are very subjective and dependent on the area of the country you live.

I never said teachers (or police officers) needed unions - I never made a claim about that. You said that they don't. I'm asking you to support your claim. Where are your facts? Where is your evidence?

Declining union membership and current laws that give ALL employees the protection once afforded by unions.

By the way, here's even more evidence from me that teachers don't join for the money. I keep giving you facts. Where are yours?

http://www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED496558.pdf

Again, just another statement that proves that teachers don't need unions nor do anyone else these days as the laws on the books protect all employees, union and non union. Less that 12% of the workforce is union and of that 12% most are public unions. That speaks volumes to those capable of thinking.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

TurtleDude said:
GIYLF

that you demand proof of stuff that anyone with an IQ of at least 90 understands is pathetic. Is that your way of responding to stuff you don't like?

Personal attacks =/= evidence. You have no proof - you're making claims based on your own prejudices and passing them off as common sense. Thanks for playing. Next?

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
Your so called facts are about job appreciation and not anything to do with pay and benefits which are very subjective and dependent on the area of the country you live.

Declining union membership and current laws that give ALL employees the protection once afforded by unions.

Again, just another statement that proves that teachers don't need unions nor do anyone else these days as the laws on the books protect all employees, union and non union. Less that 12% of the workforce is union and of that 12% most are public unions. That speaks volumes to those capable of thinking.

I backed up my claim with evidence. You haven't backed up your claim with any. You have no proof of your claims - your passing of your own prejudices based in personal experience as truth.

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive said:
I backed up my claim with evidence. You haven't backed up your claim with any. You have no proof of your claims - your passing of your own prejudices based in personal experience as truth.

And you are posting surveys as fact while not reporting data based upon regional pay and benefits information.

MaggieD · Apr 2, 2011

randel said:
exactly who are you to determine if i need a union or not? i have already explained to you that you labor under a false assumptiion...you believe that if you work hard, your employer will reward you...sometimes yes, sometimes no..there is no guarantee that hard work will see that you are rewarded...i've worked places where those of us would bust our humps, and not get squat, but yet, those who sucked the boss's ass were rewarded very well...i don't play that game. you don't seem to believe that there are employers out there who take advantage of their employees.....you need a reality check.

Better "sometimes-yes sometimes-no" than to be rewarded for a beating heart. However, I do agree with you. You undoubtedly function much better in a union shop.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
And you are posting surveys as fact while not reporting data based upon regional pay and benefits information.

I gave you evidence that showed teachers aren't satisfied with their pay - "data on regional pay and benefits" does not describe WHY teachers join the profession. However, surveys where teachers explain that their salaries aren't enough is, in fact evidence for my claim.

You gave me empty claims. No evidence at all.

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive said:
I gave you evidence that showed teachers aren't satisfied with their pay - "data on regional pay and benefits" does not describe WHY teachers join the profession. However, surveys where teachers explain that their salaries aren't enough is, in fact evidence for my claim.

You gave me empty claims. No evidence at all.

A survey of teachers not satisfied with their wages doesn't distinguish between union and non union nor is it based upon anything other than their opinions. Being unsatisfied with pay could relate to millions of Americans, union or non union.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
A survey of teachers not satisfied with their wages doesn't distinguish between union and non union nor is it based upon anything other than their opinions. Being unsatisfied with pay could relate to millions of Americans, union or non union.

I never made a claim about unions so what you're saying is irrelevant. This was my claim:

theplaydrive said:
Most teachers and police officers don't go into their profession for the money...

A survey is the only thing that can back that up. I provided that - it showed that teachers are dissatisfied with their pay aka their pay is not enough motivation to be a teacher.

These are your claims:

Conservative said:
Most teachers and police officers don't need unions either. A merit system works quite well. Unions protect mediocrity and keep good people from achieving their maximum potential.

You have no evidence.

Lord Tammerlain · Apr 2, 2011

Conservative said:
A survey of teachers not satisfied with their wages doesn't distinguish between union and non union nor is it based upon anything other than their opinions. Being unsatisfied with pay could relate to millions of Americans, union or non union.

Quite true

Which sort of goes to the point that teachers who are part of a union if I recall correctly get paid more then those that are not. After all is not one of the " benifits" of charter schools is that the teachers are paid less, and as such cost less

Conservative · Apr 2, 2011

theplaydrive said:
I never made a claim about unions so what you're saying is irrelevant. This was my claim:

A survey is the only thing that can back that up. I provided that - it showed that teachers are dissatisfied with their pay aka their pay is not enough motivation to be a teacher.

These are your claims:

You have no evidence.

Well excuse me, this thread is about unions so how could I have missed that? Nice diversion

Unions threaten Business

ThePlayDrive

Conservative

randel

randel

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

deltabtry

ThePlayDrive

Conservative

Conservative

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Lord Tammerlain

ThePlayDrive

ThePlayDrive

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

Conservative

ThePlayDrive

ThePlayDrive

Conservative

MaggieD

ThePlayDrive

Conservative

ThePlayDrive

Lord Tammerlain

Conservative