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Unions threaten Business

VanceMack said:
If it violates Michigan law than Im sure the Michigan state supreme court will resolve that matter, now wont they. In the meantime...WHY did the republican governor get elected? What is Michigans economic status? How are Michigans cities contributing to the destruction of Michigans economy. What have the democrats done to so completely hose the state? How are your cities school systems working out? How many have they had to close because individual cities continue to mismanage their budgets? Why did the Michigan governor need to step in and promote said 'emergency' legislation? You DID read your own article, right?
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That is an extremely cavalier attitude you have when it involves taking away peoples rights. I guess it would be too much to ask you to go against your fellow worshippers bowing before the same ideological altar?

Michigan got into trouble for two reasons.
First, John Engler was Governor for 12 years and he cut $32 billion dollars of revenue out of the state budget.
Former Governors - Governor John Engler Biography

Governor Engler has signed 32 tax cuts into law, saving taxpayers nearly $32 billion. The state inheritance tax and capital gains taxes have been eliminated. Personal exemptions for children, seniors and the disabled have been increased. The personal income tax rate is being reduced to 3.9 percent -- the lowest level in a quarter century -- and Michigan's main tax on business is being phased out completely
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The sad thing is that the promised increase in jobs proved to be only temporary while the tax cuts were permanent. Republicans have held the State Senate and have refused to correct Michigans out of date tax structure with anything more than minor tinkering around the edges.

For example, our neighbor state to the South - Ohio has a state progressive income tax while we do not.

As the GOP has become a party of right wing ideologues, Michigan has been no exception. The party that tells us that government will not solve our problems has made surethat government in this state does not work. Long before the national GOP became the Party of NO in Washington in 2009, the Michigan Senate was dominated by Republican zealots who wanted to make sure government in Michigan did not work.

And there is the fundamental problem: entrusting government to people who hate government and talk about it with scorn at each and every opportunity.

Second, Michigan was the one of the main manufacturing hubs in the nation and the home of the auto business. As the Big Three lost market share to foreign manufacturers and the federal government did not protect our manufacturing base, it hurt Michigan's economy and jobs hard.
 
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haymarket said:
That is an extremely cavalier attitude you have when it involves taking away peoples rights. I guess it would be too much to ask you to go against your fellow worshippers bowing before the same ideological altar?

Michigan got into trouble for two reasons.
First, John Engler was Governor for 12 years and he cut $32 billion dollars of revenue out of the state budget.
Former Governors - Governor John Engler Biography



The sad thing is that the promised increase in jobs proved to be only temporary while the tax cuts were permanent. Republicans have held the State Senate and have refused to correct Michigans out of date tax structure with anything more than minor tinkering around the edges.

For example, our neighbor state to the South - Ohio has a state progressive income tax while we do not.

Second, Michigan was the one of the main manufacturing hubs in the nation and the home of the auto business. As the Big Three lost market share to foreign manufacturers and the federal government did not protect our manufacturing base, it hurt Michigan's economy and jobs hard.
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Wow, there you go again, focused on revenue, but never spending. Has a liberal ever seen a social program that deserves cuts? Spending causes debt not lost revenue. If you had lost revenue would you continue to spend? You are so predictable, keep spending in the name of compassion while never getting compassionate results. Keep attacking people and business keeping more of their own money.
 
Conservative said:
LOL, your claim that it is a violation of the Constitution doesn't seem to jive with the people that passed the legislation. Looks like that is for the courts to decide. You willing to abide by the court decision? Doesn't seem that Obama is willing to abide by that decision on healthcare. My tail is in TX not Michigan and can assure you that if our legislature passed a bill that violated the state and Federal Constitution it would be challenged in court. What you are saying is that the Republicans in Michigan willingly and knowingly violated the Federal Constitution and you have yet to prove that. That is for the courts to decide.
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News flash for you Conservative: every law every ruled as unconstitutional was deemed legit with the folks that first passed it. So what?
 
Conservative said:
Wow, there you go again, focused on revenue, but never spending. Has a liberal ever seen a social program that deserves cuts? Spending causes debt not lost revenue. If you had lost revenue would you continue to spend? You are so predictable, keep spending in the name of compassion while never getting compassionate results. Keep attacking people and business keeping more of their own money.
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There are two sides to every budget and both must be examined. You seem to ignore that reality in favor of faith and ideology. John Engler himself brags about taking $32 billion out of the state coffers. Only a total and complete idiot would believe that such a reckless move would not endanger the financial health of the state. Of course, Engler was a total and complete idiot.
 
haymarket said:
That is an extremely cavalier attitude you have when it involves taking away peoples rights. I guess it would be too much to ask you to go against your fellow worshippers bowing before the same ideological altar?

Michigan got into trouble for two reasons.
First, John Engler was Governor for 12 years and he cut $32 billion dollars of revenue out of the state budget.
Former Governors - Governor John Engler Biography



The sad thing is that the promised increase in jobs proved to be only temporary while the tax cuts were permanent. Republicans have held the State Senate and have refused to correct Michigans out of date tax structure with anything more than minor tinkering around the edges.

For example, our neighbor state to the South - Ohio has a state progressive income tax while we do not.

As the GOP has become a party of right wing ideologues, Michigan has been no exception. The party that tells us that government will not solve our problems has made surethat government in this state does not work. Long before the national GOP became the Party of NO in Washington in 2009, the Michigan Senate was dominated by Republican zealots who wanted to make sure government in Michigan did not work.

And there is the fundamental problem: entrusting government to people who hate government and talk about it with scorn at each and every opportunity.

Second, Michigan was the one of the main manufacturing hubs in the nation and the home of the auto business. As the Big Three lost market share to foreign manufacturers and the federal government did not protect our manufacturing base, it hurt Michigan's economy and jobs hard.
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Here are the Engler unemployment numbers, compare those to the 10.4% today. Guess you got it wrong again. I know that bls numbers don't trump your opinions but it does seem that his numbers are much better than they are under Democrat leadership the past 8 years.

Year Period rate
1991 Jan 8.9
1992 Jan 9.6
1993 Jan 7.8
1995 Jan 5.2
1996 Jan 5
1997 Jan 4.7
1998 Jan 4.1
1999 Jan 4
2000 Jan 3.4
2001 Dec 6.2
 
haymarket said:
There are two sides to every budget and both must be examined. You seem to ignore that reality in favor of faith and ideology. John Engler himself brags about taking $32 billion out of the state coffers. Only a total and complete idiot would believe that such a reckless move would not endanger the financial health of the state. Of course, Engler was a total and complete idiot.
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No, what I understand is that people with more of their money need less of that govt. help you are promoting and further I know that jobs created in the private sector are better than jobs in the public sector regarding individual wealth creation vs dependenced created by liberalism
 
haymarket said:
There are two sides to every budget and both must be examined. You seem to ignore that reality in favor of faith and ideology. John Engler himself brags about taking $32 billion out of the state coffers. Only a total and complete idiot would believe that such a reckless move would not endanger the financial health of the state. Of course, Engler was a total and complete idiot.
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I understand, in your world high unemployment good but low unemployment bad. Engler's unemployment numbers kick the Democrats' butt.
 
haymarket said:
News flash for you Conservative: every law every ruled as unconstitutional was deemed legit with the folks that first passed it. So what?
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So what? If it is unconstitution get it declared unconstitutional. That is what the courts are for unless of course when you are the "messiah" like Obama is and ignores court orders.
 
Got what wrong? I told you that the job increase did happen but was temporary while the tax cut structure became permanent. My god but you are tremendously intellectually dishonest. Engler had the good fortune to be in office a the same time as Bill Clinton was President. Do you want to give credit to him for Michigan's booming economy in those years?
 
EarlzP said:
Wisconsin teacher unions offer concessions (Wizbang)

Top leaders of two of Wisconsin's largest public employee unions announced they are willing to accept the financial concessions called for in [Governor] Walker's plan, but will not accept the loss of collective bargaining rights.

Walker did not want to negotiate he only wants to enforce his will, being in a union does not eliminate future contract negotiations,Walker was more interested in trying to drive out the unions then he was in reducing the deficit through honest negotiations
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First, show me a quote that says that. This link is an interpretation of what was said. Same link says:

Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, and Marty Beil, executive director of AFSCME Council 24, said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin's budget gap.
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"Fair share" does not mean, "We agree to Walker's financial concessions." That's one point.

Second point is that unions all over the state rushed to get their contracts signed while this legislation was being stonewalled by the Democrats. Show me that these newly signed contracts include these concessions. You can't. Because they don't.
 
Conservative said:
So what? If it is unconstitution get it declared unconstitutional. That is what the courts are for unless of course when you are the "messiah" like Obama is and ignores court orders.
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Just when I think you have hit the bottom of your own barrel, you announce to the world that you are digging out a new basement.
 
haymarket said:
Got what wrong? I told you that the job increase did happen but was temporary while the tax cut structure became permanent. My god but you are tremendously intellectually dishonest. Engler had the good fortune to be in office a the same time as Bill Clinton was President. Do you want to give credit to him for Michigan's booming economy in those years?
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temporary? for 10 years? LOL, good fortune of being in office while Clinton was in office? Where did welfare reform come from? Lower unemployment thanks to Engler now is credited to Clinton? LOL
 
haymarket said:
Just when I think you have hit the bottom of your own barrel, you announce to the world that you are digging out a new basement.
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Sorry, haymarket to confuse you with facts, logic, and common sense. I realize those have no place in the liberal world.
 
Conservative said:
What does any of that have to do with the thread topic? I voted for Bush because his opponent was Gore who would have been worse, IMO. I voted for Bush again when his opponent was Kerry, again a better alternative. Now who should I have voted for with those options? I refuse to waste my vote and thus vote for the better alternative, now back to the thread topic.
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Just pointing out the hypocrisy is all. Even after voting, I don't think I saw this level of criticism against Bush that I see from your side against Obama, despite the fact that they are nearly the same. All this Obama blah blah blah wasn't being thrown out when Bush did the same thing.

Y'all support big government, big spending, big intrusion, big deficit, big war, big brother style government; it's just that you want your form of big spending, big intrusion, big deficit, big war, big brother style government.
 
Facts about Michigans 'illegal' action...

State intervention on local unit financial emergencies is not new, nor is only supported by Republicans:
 Michigan has had an emergency financial manager law on the books since 1988.
 The original law was signed by Democrat governor James Blanchard.
 An emergency financial manager has only been put in place a total of 10 times in more than 20
years. Emergency financial managers have been utilized by both Republican and Democrat
governors.
 State Treasurer Andy Dillon, who previously served as the Democrat Speaker of the House, is
leading the administration’s effort to ensure emergency managers that may be necessary in the
future are properly trained.

Whaaaaaat??? This would indicate that argument promoted by the lead Union hack is false??? Im totally SHOCKED.... :shock:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/EMF_Fact_Sheet2_347889_7.pdf
 
Ikari said:
Just pointing out the hypocrisy is all. Even after voting, I don't think I saw this level of criticism against Bush that I see from your side against Obama, despite the fact that they are nearly the same. All this Obama blah blah blah wasn't being thrown out when Bush did the same thing.

Y'all support big government, big spending, big intrusion, big deficit, big war, big brother style government; it's just that you want your form of big spending, big intrusion, big deficit, big war, big brother style government.
Click to expand...

That is speculation, there was a lot of outrage over the Bush spending but that was tempered by a pro growth economic policy vs. a pro public sector economic policy. I believe you know the difference.
 
haymarket said:
That is an extremely cavalier attitude you have when it involves taking away peoples rights. I guess it would be too much to ask you to go against your fellow worshippers bowing before the same ideological altar?

Michigan got into trouble for two reasons.
First, John Engler was Governor for 12 years and he cut $32 billion dollars of revenue out of the state budget.
Former Governors - Governor John Engler Biography



The sad thing is that the promised increase in jobs proved to be only temporary while the tax cuts were permanent. Republicans have held the State Senate and have refused to correct Michigans out of date tax structure with anything more than minor tinkering around the edges.

For example, our neighbor state to the South - Ohio has a state progressive income tax while we do not.

As the GOP has become a party of right wing ideologues, Michigan has been no exception. The party that tells us that government will not solve our problems has made surethat government in this state does not work. Long before the national GOP became the Party of NO in Washington in 2009, the Michigan Senate was dominated by Republican zealots who wanted to make sure government in Michigan did not work.

And there is the fundamental problem: entrusting government to people who hate government and talk about it with scorn at each and every opportunity.

Second, Michigan was the one of the main manufacturing hubs in the nation and the home of the auto business. As the Big Three lost market share to foreign manufacturers and the federal government did not protect our manufacturing base, it hurt Michigan's economy and jobs hard.
Click to expand...

And of course you WERE aggressively working against the democrat governors in your state when this has been done in the past...right?

Cavalier? Dood...this country is a sinking ship because of the fiscal irresponsibility executed by democrats and republicans. If there are some people taking tough aggressive stands now...iIknow it sucks to be you...but your alternative is...what exactly? Your state is a financial ****hole. The trick is to start bailing water OUT...and STOP scooping up water and pouring it IN your little dingy.
 
haymarket said:
Got what wrong? I told you that the job increase did happen but was temporary while the tax cut structure became permanent. My god but you are tremendously intellectually dishonest. Engler had the good fortune to be in office a the same time as Bill Clinton was President. Do you want to give credit to him for Michigan's booming economy in those years?
Click to expand...

In 1991 Engler took office with Unemployment at 8.9% and took it to 3.4% in 2000. In 2001 we went into recession and had 9/11 so the unemployment rate rose to 6.4%. It is 10.4% today.
 
MaggieD said:
First, show me a quote that says that. This link is an interpretation of what was said. Same link says:



"Fair share" does not mean, "We agree to Walker's financial concessions." That's one point.

Second point is that unions all over the state rushed to get their contracts signed while this legislation was being stonewalled by the Democrats. Show me that these newly signed contracts include these concessions. You can't. Because they don't.
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Show me where Walker ever even offered to consider the give back? You can't because he didn't, because it would not serve his purpose, because the primary driving force behind his actions was not wages it was about restricting the teachers collective bargaining rights.

In a way I am happy to see how the Republicans are attacking the middle class, maybe it will wake them up and get them back to the poles in 2012.

The sad thing is that it does not matter without job creation we are in a downward wage and standard of living spiral that will end only when we are wage competitive with the foreign countries that we are competing with in the global economy.
 
Conservative said:
That is speculation, there was a lot of outrage over the Bush spending but that was tempered by a pro growth economic policy vs. a pro public sector economic policy. I believe you know the difference.
Click to expand...

Nope, I saw a lot of hand outs to the rich, lots of benefits for corporations, a Medicare Part D which was nothing more than a pure handout of taxpayer money to the pharmacutical companies, a war we didn't need to involve ourself in, a war plan that was obviously anything but, suspect behavior from the government, laxed approaches to duties, Cheny claiming to be part of the executive or legislative branch whenever it suited his needs, a budget which exploded, a deficit which exploded, regulations removed from banking industry, an economy which blew up due to the lax regulations, etc. And in all that I saw very little outrage from your side. Now that Obama does pretty much the same thing, I see the outrage I had expected to see before. It's hypocricy and nothing more. The R changes to a D and then there's outrage; that's all that happened. I believe you know that.

The Republocrats do not serve the Republic or the People.
 
Ikari said:
Nope, I saw a lot of hand outs to the rich, lots of benefits for corporations, a Medicare Part D which was nothing more than a pure handout of taxpayer money to the pharmacutical companies, a war we didn't need to involve ourself in, a war plan that was obviously anything but, suspect behavior from the government, laxed approaches to duties, Cheny claiming to be part of the executive or legislative branch whenever it suited his needs, a budget which exploded, a deficit which exploded, regulations removed from banking industry, an economy which blew up due to the lax regulations, etc. And in all that I saw very little outrage from your side. Now that Obama does pretty much the same thing, I see the outrage I had expected to see before. It's hypocricy and nothing more. The R changes to a D and then there's outrage; that's all that happened. I believe you know that.

The Republocrats do not serve the Republic or the People.
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Not sure how to get this through to you but people keeping the money they earned isn't a handout, never has been nor will it ever be. Anyone that believes that has truly been brainwased.

Obviously you don't seem to understand incentive and how Part D played into that incentive. Read the bill and see what it does instead of buying liberal talking points. It reduced Medicare Part D costs as I posted.

The outrage against obama is the focus on the public sector instead of the private sector and we have a private sector economy. Govt creates debt, not individual wealth creation.
 
Conservative said:
Not sure how to get this through to you but people keeping the money they earned isn't a handout, never has been nor will it ever be. Anyone that believes that has truly been brainwased.

Obviously you don't seem to understand incentive and how Part D played into that incentive. Read the bill and see what it does instead of buying liberal talking points. It reduced Medicare Part D costs as I posted.

The outrage against obama is the focus on the public sector instead of the private sector and we have a private sector economy. Govt creates debt, not individual wealth creation.
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It's funny to see people defend improper government action so long as it is improper government action they like. Thanks for showing why there's no difference between the Republicans and Democrats. I mean, there were a few folk all red in the face claiming that Wisconsin unions were tax payer supplied because teacher's wages go to dues. But here's other things which directly give away tax payer money, and it's now something else. It'd be funny if it weren't one of the main causes why the Republic is failing. Great job!
 
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Ikari said:
It's funny to see people defend improper government action so long as it is improper government action they like. Thanks for showing why there's no difference between the Republicans and Democrats. I mean, there were a few folk all red in the face claiming that Wisconsin unions were tax payer supplied because teacher's wages go to dues. But here's other things which directly give away tax payer money, and it's now something else. It'd be funny if it weren't one of the main causes why the Republic is failing. Great job!
Click to expand...

Shows me how you believe in govt. responsibility over personal responsibility. Where did I ever support improper govt. action? Liberals give away other's money every day on things they believe important. The difference between the two parties is one believes in equal opportunity while the other believes in equal outcome.
 
Conservative said:
Not sure how to get this through to you but people keeping the money they earned isn't a handout, never has been nor will it ever be. Anyone that believes that has truly been brainwased.

Obviously you don't seem to understand incentive and how Part D played into that incentive. Read the bill and see what it does instead of buying liberal talking points. It reduced Medicare Part D costs as I posted.

The outrage against obama is the focus on the public sector instead of the private sector and we have a private sector economy. Govt creates debt, not individual wealth creation.
Click to expand...

Earning is one thing stealing is another, the money that the banking and mortgage companies made from the housing bubble was stealing, the money wall street brokers made is stealing.
Since it appears that business owners have no incentive to return to America maybe the government should get involved in the creation of wealth more openly, you know instead of creating wars to ensure the flow of oil to American corporations we could form government corporations to handle the oil from the ground to the pump that way we could lessen the impact on the consumer by controlling prices and put the profits back into the government for research and development of alternate energy sources
 
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