Unions threaten Business

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

VanceMack said:
I suggest the government...democrats and republicans...stop spending money like crack addicts. And I suggest people in the country stop acting like whiny bitches and engage in their own lives. How much of that debt and deficit is going to paying for social programs? Why is that immigrants, legal and otherwise, can come here and succeed but so many natural born citizens cant?

We all agree spending needs to be cut, we just don't agree on what needs to be cut. The bigger obstacle to a balanced budget is that only one side thinks we need discontinue the tax cuts to the most wealthy.

Without both sides being addressed, spending and revenue, we will never get out of debt. And unless we commit to carrying out the reform of Wall Street, we face the same type of crash we've just been through again.

If you want to eliminate social programs, jobs will be needed that pay a living wage, enough to provide for survival, health insurance, and retirement. Unless you know of a third option? More prisons, workhouses perhaps?

VanceMack · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
We all agree spending needs to be cut, we just don't agree on what needs to be cut. The bigger obstacle to a balanced budget is that only one side thinks we need discontinue the tax cuts to the most wealthy.

Without both sides being addressed, spending and revenue, we will never get out of debt. And unless we commit to carrying out the reform of Wall Street, we face the same type of crash we've just been through again.

If you want to eliminate social programs, jobs will be needed that pay a living wage, enough to provide for survival, health insurance, and retirement. Unless you know of a third option? More prisons, workhouses perhaps?

which side is it that wants to eliminate tax cuts for the rich? the dems who voted for it? Thats did nothing about anything except spend more money for the 4 years it controlled the house and senate? That voted for it originally, and voted for the Obama Tax cuts? Face it...democrat politicians give lip service to tax cuts and spending.

For what it is worth (which is very little because my voice doesnt count for much)...Ive stated NUMEROUS times I am ALL FOR raising taxes to pay down the debt...PROVIDED they have legislated and mandated serious deficit cuts. I am all for across the board spending cuts. Nothing should be off limits. As for the social spending...I will point out yet again that for some reason many people come here with nothing and build businesses. The opportunities are there. Unfortunately...politicians have crippled too many willing participants by tossing them crumbs and pretending they care about the poor. But we can only blame the politicians so much. The majority of the burden falls to the people in this country that spend the majority of their time and effort whining about how unfair life is or bitching about other peoples success. You want success? Grow up...stand up...work hard. Its not that difficult.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
Our 14.2 trillion dollar National debt and lack of jobs are my top priorities and where it has been shown that Reaganomics (trickle down theory and deregulation) have failed over the last 30 years.

What are your top priorities?

And let's see your evidence that these areas have improved since we began this experiment in 1981 of cutting tax rates for the most wealthy and deregulating Wall Street?

You've yet to show proof, instead you're deflecting it to me.

If you're so clearly assured that you're right, it should be of no consequence to prove it with hard facts.
Tax rates and deficit spending are not the same thing.

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

VanceMack said:
which side is it that wants to eliminate tax cuts for the rich? the dems who voted for it? Thats did nothing about anything except spend more money for the 4 years it controlled the house and senate? That voted for it originally, and voted for the Obama Tax cuts? Face it...democrat politicians give lip service to tax cuts and spending.

For what it is worth (which is very little because my voice doesnt count for much)...Ive stated NUMEROUS times I am ALL FOR raising taxes to pay down the debt...PROVIDED they have legislated and mandated serious deficit cuts. I am all for across the board spending cuts. Nothing should be off limits. As for the social spending...I will point out yet again that for some reason many people come here with nothing and build businesses. The opportunities are there. Unfortunately...politicians have crippled too many willing participants by tossing them crumbs and pretending they care about the poor. But we can only blame the politicians so much. The majority of the burden falls to the people in this country that spend the majority of their time and effort whining about how unfair life is or bitching about other peoples success. You want success? Grow up...stand up...work hard. Its not that difficult.

The house passed a bill that eliminated the tax cuts to the wealthy. Obama has proposed cutting the taxes to the wealthy in his 2012 budget. Are you suggesting the GOP is now ready to accept this?

So your position is that the middle class is just lazy. That is the reason that more and more of them are sliding into poverty, even the ones that still have full-time jobs? Where are the jobs that people can pull themselves out of poverty with? Until you have a system that allows the majority of people to climb the ladder together, you are going to have to have social programs to prevent a hundred million people in the street ready to kill you for a loaf of bread. 30 years of Reaganomics has provided a crashed economy with few jobs and increased welfare.

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
You've yet to show proof, instead you're deflecting it to me.

If you're so clearly assured that you're right, it should be of no consequence to prove it with hard facts.
Tax rates do not translate directly to deficit spending.

I've provided cold hard facts from three different credible sources. All I've seen from you is opinion unsubstantiated in any way.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
I've provided cold hard facts from three different credible sources. All I've seen from you is opinion unsubstantiated in any way.

You've shown level of debt, you've shown a graph of unemployment during a recession, in what way does that prove that "Reaganomics" are the cause?

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
You've shown level of debt, you've shown a graph of unemployment during a recession, in what way does that prove that "Reaganomics" are the cause?

Deregulation (Reagaomics concept) of Wall street brought about the biggest recession since the Great depression which has resulted in the jobless data I provided.

Our record of large debt began exactly in 1981 when Reaganomics called for decreasing our revenue by slashing the tax rates for the most wealthy. This is vividly documented in the statistics I provided.

VanceMack · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
The house passed a bill that eliminated the tax cuts to the wealthy. Obama has proposed cutting the taxes to the wealthy in his 2012 budget. Are you suggesting the GOP is now ready to accept this?

So your position is that the middle class is just lazy. That is the reason that more and more of them are sliding into poverty, even the ones that still have full-time jobs? Where are the jobs that people can pull themselves out of poverty with? Until you have a system that allows the majority of people to climb the ladder together, you are going to have to have social programs to prevent a hundred million people in the street ready to kill you for a loaf of bread. 30 years of Reaganomics has provided a crashed economy with few jobs and increased welfare.

Middle class? Nah...I think most of the middle class is still out there busting their hump. They arent risk-takers...they don't start businesses...but they do work. No...I think the lower income folks are the ones that don't prepare themselves as teens, that look for hand-outs not hand-ups, and that have a pocketful of excuses why its everyone else's fault but their own why they cant succeed. MANY are truly needy...but many more are weak...lazy...were raised by weak and lazy people or by parents that spoiled them, and continue to expect others to take care of them. You bet.

MILLIONS of illegals come here and succeed. You CONTINUE to ignore that reality. I know, I know...it sucks because it totally destroys your argument. But there it is.

And yes...I am bothered that both the corporations and the unions have pretty much successfully sold our industrial base down the river. Blame it on corporations but also blame it on unions that priced the American worker out of the market.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
Deregulation (Reagaomics concept) of Wall street brought about the biggest recession since the Great depression which has resulted in the jobless data I provided.

Most every credible economist does not lay the blame on the collapse of the housing market, squarely on the lap of Wall street.
Love your selective blame.

Catawba said:
Our record of large debt began exactly in 1981 when Reaganomics called for decreasing our revenue by slashing the tax rates for the most wealthy. This is vividly documented in the statistics I provided.

Let's explore the 4 pillars of the plan though.

Reaganomics (a portmanteau of Reagan and economics attributed to Paul Harvey[1]) refers to the economic policies promoted by the U.S. President Ronald Reagan during the 1980s. The four pillars of Reagan's economic policy were to:[2]

1. Reduce Government spending.
2. Reduce Income Tax and Capital Gains Tax.
3. Reduce Government regulation.
4. Control the money supply to reduce inflation.

In his stated intention to increase defense spending while lowering taxes, Reagan's approach was a departure from his immediate predecessors. Reagan enacted lower marginal tax rates in conjunction with simplified income tax codes and continued deregulation.

Reaganomics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I highlighted both 1 and 4 to show that those criteria were never met, particularly by those in Congress, so to say that "Reaganomics" caused all this would be dishonest or a sign of ignorance.

Which is it?

cpwill · Mar 15, 2011

apdst said:
Didn't The Messiah say that everyone was going to have to make sacrifices?

well, yeah... but by 'everybody' he didn't mean, you know... everybody. public sector unions are his favorite, and the other kids will just have to deal.

and how do we end up "dealing"? we end up dealing with lower wages for fewer jobs.

Catawba; it looks like the only people "waiting for the trickle down" are those unfortunate enough to live in a state that encourages unionization.

...Among America’s 22 right-to-work states (including Florida, Georgia, and Texas), non-farm private-sector employment grew 3.7 percent from 1999 to 2009, while it shrank 2.8 percent among America’s 28 forced-unionism states (e.g. California, Illinois, and New York).

During those ten years, real personal income rose 28.3 percent in right-to-work states and sank 14.7 percent in forced-unionism states.

In 2009, cost-of-living-adjusted, per-capita, disposable personal income was $35,543 in right-to-work states versus $33,389 in forced-unionism states. Americans in right-to-work states enjoyed more freedom — and a $2,154 premium...

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

VanceMack said:
Middle class? Nah...I think most of the middle class is still out there busting their hump. They arent risk-takers...they don't start businesses...but they do work. No...I think the lower income folks are the ones that don't prepare themselves as teens, that look for hand-outs not hand-ups, and that have a pocketful of excuses why its everyone else's fault but their own why they cant succeed. MANY are truly needy...but many more are weak...lazy...were raised by weak and lazy people or by parents that spoiled them, and continue to expect others to take care of them. You bet.

MILLIONS of illegals come here and succeed. You CONTINUE to ignore that reality. I know, I know...it sucks because it totally destroys your argument. But there it is.

And yes...I am bothered that both the corporations and the unions have pretty much successfully sold our industrial base down the river. Blame it on corporations but also blame it on unions that priced the American worker out of the market.

I hate to break this to you but in order for the middle class to compete with third world wages, leaves them with less than a living wage, which mean more slide from middle class to poor and have need of more need our safety net programs.

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
Most every credible economist does not lay the blame on the collapse of the housing market, squarely on the lap of Wall street.
Love your selective blame.

That's funny, every credible economist I've read says Reaganomics was a failure over the long term. And, the housing market collapse and the Wall Street corruption were both allowed to happen through inadequate regulation.

Let's explore the 4 pillars of the plan though.

Reaganomics (a portmanteau of Reagan and economics attributed to Paul Harvey[1]) refers to the economic policies promoted by the U.S. President Ronald Reagan during the 1980s. The four pillars of Reagan's economic policy were to:[2]

1. Reduce Government spending.

Never implemented in the last 30 years.

2. Reduce Income Tax and Capital Gains Tax

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(with the great majority going to those at the top)
Yep that cost our country about 9.2 trillion dollars over the last 30 years.

3. Reduce Government regulation.

Yep, brought us Enron and the Wall Street fiasco, thanks!

4. Control the money supply to reduce inflation.

Nope, didn't happen.

Reaganomics, as we have known it for the last 30 years under both parties has just been the cut in taxes for the rich and deregulation parts, which have failed miserably.

Harry Guerrilla · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
That's funny, every credible economist I've read says Reaganomics was a failure over the long term. And, the housing market collapse and the Wall Street corruption were both allowed to happen through inadequate regulation.

Never implemented in the last 30 years.

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(with the great majority going to those at the top)
Yep that cost our country about 9.2 trillion dollars over the last 30 years.

Yep, brought us Enron and the Wall Street fiasco, thanks!

Nope, didn't happen.

Reaganomics, as we have known it for the last 30 years under both parties has just been the cut in taxes for the rich and deregulation parts, which have failed miserably.

So basically you admit that 2 out of the 4 pillars of Reaganomics didn't happen but you say that Reaganomics has caused our current and past problems.
You're contradicting yourself.

You have also failed to note that Jimmy Carter started a lot of the deregulation, that carried it's way through Reagan's administration.

Slartibartfast · Mar 15, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
So basically you admit that 2 out of the 4 pillars of Reaganomics didn't happen but you say that Reaganomics has caused our current and past problems.
You're contradicting yourself.

You have also failed to note that Jimmy Carter started a lot of the deregulation, that carried it's way through Reagan's administration.

yay its harry

:2party::2party::2party:

Badmutha · Mar 15, 2011

liblady said:
for you AND buck: if you want public schools to go away, don't patronize them. aren't you willing to sacrifice a little for your beliefs? i sent my kids to catholic school, and i never once whined about paying twice. choices.

You may be able to make that choice......I may be able to make that choice.......

......and to the millions of people who cant afford that choice....who would love to send their kids to Private Schools to get a good education......but who's only choice is to send their kids to Union ru(i)n Public Schools to nowhere.......

........well tough **** huh.
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liblady · Mar 15, 2011

apdst said:
What do banks do?

I work in the oilfield. No mor money trickling down from me, thanks to your boy. I used to trickle down 50 grand, or so a year, but not anymore.

you lost your job because of obama?

Badmutha · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
1 in 7 Americans being poor in 2009 not enough sacrifice for you. It wouldn't occur to you to look at the gains made by the super rich at our expense, would it?

Did rich people come to your home and rob you or something?
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Badmutha · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
The idea behind Reaganomics is that deregulation would allow the economy to soar, instead it allowed greed in Wall Street to bust our economy causing the greatest recession (job killer) since the Great Depression.

As to why anyone would think that was a good idea, beats the hell out of me. And the kicker is, some still do! Can you believe that???

Did THE LARGEST MORTGAGE UNDERWRITER IN THE WORLD have anything at all to do with it?
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Badmutha · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
Reaganomics caused the recession that killed the jobs. The number of poor in America was already at 1 in 7 in 2009 according to the 2010 Census.

Here is the before and after jobs picture:

msnbc.com business - New jobless claims rise unexpectedly

Despite the liberal belief that presidents are all powerful all controling Gods, for the most part, Presidents sign or dont sign.........the actions of Congress have a far greater impact on our economy.

Unemployment Rate Since Democrats Took Over Congress

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Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Badmutha said:
Did THE LARGEST MORTGAGE UNDERWRITER IN THE WORLD have anything at all to do with it?

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Was the largest mortgage underwriter in the world ADEQUATELY REGULATED in your opinion?

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Harry Guerrilla said:
So basically you admit that 2 out of the 4 pillars of Reaganomics didn't happen but you say that Reaganomics has caused our current and past problems.
You're contradicting yourself.

No, I am just not ignoring that a building with only 2 pillars cannot stand.

You have also failed to note that Jimmy Carter started a lot of the deregulation, that carried it's way through Reagan's administration.

It doesn't work no matter who does it.

Badmutha · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
Was the largest mortgage underwriter in the world ADEQUATELY REGULATED in your opinion?

There is no GSE in this country that is adequately regulated.....so no. GOVERNMENT MORTGAGE INC should have never existed.....and any attempts to reign it in were met with great opposition by a party that believes people who have never ran anything.....can run everything.

Might as well just let them tell you....

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Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Badmutha said:
Did rich people come to your home and rob you or something?
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Yes, in 1981 and each year since. The top 1% gains and the middle class decline. That's Reagonomics.

Catawba · Mar 15, 2011

Badmutha said:
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Great graph! :sun

Badmutha · Mar 15, 2011

Catawba said:
Yes, in 1981 and each year since. The top 1% gains and the middle class decline. That's Reagonomics.

So how do the rich take that %1 from you?

........does the economic pie ever grow?
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Unions threaten Business

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Harry Guerrilla

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Harry Guerrilla

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

VanceMack

Less like the tiger...more like the lion.

Harry Guerrilla

cpwill

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Harry Guerrilla

Slartibartfast

Jesus loves you.

Badmutha

liblady

pirate lover

Badmutha

Badmutha

Badmutha

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Badmutha

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist

Badmutha