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Thread: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Walker and the republicans in the wisconsin senate, hardly the people.
    So...THE PEOPLE did not elect them to represent their interest? How did they ascend to their positions? Did they STEAL the election? We do live in a Representative Republic...as far removed from a pure Democracy as the night is from day. See point number 10 of the Federalist Papers in relation as to why Article 4 Section 4 of the United States Constitution exists with its mandate of Republican Representation. It appears that Mr. Madison had the Democrats pegged to perfection with their IDEOLOGY of democracy, i.e., mobocracy, as evidenced by the violent threats of death and riots in the streets. Democracies have no respect for personal freedom, individual rights of property..etc, as are always VIOLENT.

    It appears that you believe the people who are UNION MEMBERS have more authority than does the State Constitution of Wisconsin or even the United States Constitution....because they supposedly represent....democracy in action..no? To hell with the established format of history and its representative mandate found to exist in the US CONSTITUTION.
    Last edited by Walter; 03-13-11 at 08:56 AM.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Perhaps what megaprogman meant was that Walker was elected by a minority of the Wisconsin people and it becomes debatable as if he truly speaks for "the people of Wisconsin". 25% of Wisconsin adults voted for Walker for governor in 2010.
    Last edited by haymarket; 03-13-11 at 09:10 AM.
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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    So...THE PEOPLE did not elect them to represent their interest? How did they ascend to their positions? Did they STEAL the election? We do live in a Representative Republic...as far removed from a pure Democracy as the night is from day. See point number 10 of the Federalist Papers in relation as to why Article 4 Section 4 of the United States Constitution exists with its mandate of Republican Representation. It appears that Mr. Madison had the Democrats pegged to perfection with their IDEOLOGY of democracy, i.e., mobocracy, as evidenced by the violent threats of death and riots in the streets. Democracies have no respect for personal freedom, individual rights of property..etc, as are always VIOLENT.

    It appears that you believe the people who are UNION MEMBERS have more authority than does the State Constitution of Wisconsin or even the United States Constitution....because they supposedly represent....democracy in action..no? To hell with the established format of history and its representative mandate found to exist in the US CONSTITUTION.
    Ok, so if you are going to use the elections as your gauge, then the conclusion is that the tea party was being silly since THE PEOPLE elected the democrats in '08. By your logic of course.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    you are confusing a minority party in the legislature with a demographic minority across the nation.
    the way we measure minority and majority as far as governing is concerned is via the ballot; which put those Republicans in power.

    Now you could definitely say that "collective bargaining rights" are popular. so are "right to work" rights and "self government rights", both of which, arguably, were on the Governors side.

    it seems that Americans are in favor of "rights" generally when polled; we'll see in the upcoming elections how they feel about public employee unions v republicans.

    either way it's immaterial. the fact remains that the minority party tried to shut down government in order to get their way.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok, so if you are going to use the elections as your gauge, then the conclusion is that the tea party was being silly since THE PEOPLE elected the democrats in '08. By your logic of course.
    which would make the anti-war movement silly prior to the election of 2006.

    but if elections are how we measure, then the Tea party should be measured by 2010.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    which would make the anti-war movement silly prior to the election of 2006.

    but if elections are how we measure, then the Tea party should be measured by 2010.
    I agree, it would make the antiwar movement silly as well. The whole what is elected is right idea doesn't wash for those sorts of reasons. Also, I put less stock in the middle elections (2010, 2006) since voter turnout is generally very low compared to the years we have a president on the ballot. Either way, that is also beside the point.

    The best way to find out voter sentiment is with opinion polling, not pointing to the last election, the reason is that people's opinions do change over time.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 03-13-11 at 09:33 AM.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Only the modern filibuster. The original filibuster meant a single person had to take up all of the senate's time by talking nonstop. For that day Strom Thurmond was reading his mom's cookbooks, no other business could be done. It was only after fairly recent rules reforms that it didn't bring things to a halt.
    that's a good point.

    part of me wonders if the older way wasn't better; in that it at least forced the people involved to really mean it. easy to check the "fillibuster" box. much harder to get up there and read from the phone book for 11 hours. perhaps that would remove it as a weapon of mere obstructionism and into a true last-ditch no-this-is-important defense of a minority fighting off an abusive majority.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I agree, it would make the antiwar movement silly as well. The whole what is elected is right idea doesn't wash for those sorts of reasons. Also, I put less stock in the middle elections (2010, 2006) since voter turnout is generally very low compared to the years we have a president on the ballot
    that is true, but 2010 stands out among mid-term elections. i think we had something like a 42% turnout? that's the highest since 1970 for a mid-term.

    Either way, that is also beside the point.
    True. Bush was not any more President because he won reelection with a 55% turnout to Clintons' 49%.

    The best way to find out voter sentiment is with opinion polling, not pointing to the last election, the reason is that people's opinions do change over time.
    that is also true. but if you want to match it to how that opinion is likely to shape events, then you need to poll likely voters.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is true, but 2010 stands out among mid-term elections. i think we had something like a 42% turnout? that's the highest since 1970 for a mid-term.



    True. Bush was not any more President because he won reelection with a 55% turnout to Clintons' 49%.



    that is also true. but if you want to match it to how that opinion is likely to shape events, then you need to poll likely voters.
    The ultimate point being that we cannot look at the current crop of politicians (whether we agree or disagree with what they are pushing for legislatively) and assume that since they were elected, it is the will of the people. Elections are snapshots, but also elections do not give us complete information about what the politician will be doing once elected (we all lament about politicians not doing what they promised during a campaign for example). In the end, it means walter's argument is silly and intellectually void.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The ultimate point being that we cannot look at the current crop of politicians (whether we agree or disagree with what they are pushing for legislatively) and assume that since they were elected, it is the will of the people
    actually that's all we have to go on, when we are discussing such matters as actual governing policy or legislation. you cannot govern by poll; it is too fickle, too easy to twist, too easy to fool.... there is a reason there are multiple, competing pollster agencies. an election, hwoever, is fixed. it can only be changed at the next election, and it is undoubtably the will of the people who bothered to vote.

    it's either elections, or we trust to kings in all but name.

    Elections are snapshots, but also elections do not give us complete information about what the politician will be doing once elected (we all lament about politicians not doing what they promised during a campaign for example)
    which is why we have the next election as a corrective mechanism.

    In the end, it means walter's argument is silly and intellectually void.
    to the contrary, he is standing on the only truly firm ground outside of the Divine.

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