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Thread: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i'm sorry, but didn't the minority party in Wisconsin just refuse to even allow the government to function rather than lose a vote?
    you are confusing a minority party in the legislature with a demographic minority across the nation.
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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so you could say it's Republicans trying to remove a major benefactor of the Democratic Party, or you could say it's about the Democrats seeking to protect that same benefactor (controlling actor?), or you could say it's about the Public Unions themselves refusing to give up their grip on political power.

    All strike me as simply different ways of looking at the exact same central issue: the key here is that this is about the lessening of Public Unions' political power and influence.



    didn't Democrats just get done with that? had an unfillibusterable majority in the senate, even, as i recall.

    Gosh, who were the major donors to the Democrats in 2008 when they won that supermajority? who were their "feet on the ground" and their political muscle? Who did the same in 2010 to try to help them retain that one-party rule?

    Gee wiz, the public sector unions? you don't say....

    I don't want a single-party Republican rule. I want a two-party system. Republicans and Libertarians.



    sounds to me like they are worried that Unions might be abusing their members. given that up until now membership was forced, that wouldn't be too hard a thing to imagine.

    but now (and this is the real kicker) membership is no longer forced. I think even within that central issue of reducing the power and control of the Public Unions, that is the main thorn in their craw



    given that it was the Democrats fleeing the state and refusing to do their jobs that forced them to pass the measure in that particular manner.

    but yes, in general this is about doing our best to remove the virus in our governing system that is public sector unions. "government" is not supposed to be it's own interest group.
    sounds to you like that the republicans are worried about the unions abusing their members eh? sure cp, sure, that is a load of dung and you know it.....sad day in mudville cp, i know your brighter than that.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    sounds to you like that the republicans are worried about the unions abusing their members eh?
    that's why we oppose getting rid of the secret ballot.

    sure cp, sure, that is a load of dung and you know it.
    well ole tag-teamer, you are probably right about some - but not for me. i have to wonder why the unions are so petrified that their members will get the choice whether to be a member or not. we have a name for places that seek to lock people inside; we call them prisons. I notice, for example, that in Indiana when workers were given the choice by Mitch Daniels, that something like 90% of them decided they weren't interested in being forced to send money to the union... and I have to wonder... what kind of "beneficial" organization would see 90% of it's members flee as soon as they had the option?

    you and I both agree that this is about reducing the political power of public unions. but think on this: if the unions' members were so excited to be part of it, if all those millions upon millions upon millions were really coming from willing donors... then the threat of allowing people to opt out would be a paper tiger. it would be like threatening a rich man with your willingness to accept a check for $1,000,000 from him, should he choose to give it to you. claiming that members of the union who have no choice to be there don't want the choice to be there reminds me of the hermit kingdom (nKorea) swearing up and down that it's citizens love their government and their poverty... and that is why it must kill any of them that attempt to escape.

    if - as you claim - the unions are beneficial organizations for their members, and if - as you claim - those dues don't in any way end up purchasing said unions' political power.... then the measure just passed can't be about reducing union political power because it would have no effect whatsoever upon it.
    Last edited by cpwill; 03-13-11 at 05:35 AM.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Exactly. The Republican party has looked at the demographics and have rightly concluded that the party of the angry white man is going to have a very hard time winning elections in an America which is becoming increasing less white with every passing year. So the solution is to make sure that elections are conducted with as many advantages going to their core constituency as is possible. That includes making it harder for people to vote with ID requirements. It includes allowing corporations to buy elections through the terrible Citizens United decision. It includes going after and destroying groups like Acorn which registered lots of Democratic voters. It includes weakening labor unions which have been key supporters of Democratic candidates. It includes trying to take citizenship rights and thus voting rights from people born in the USA from immigrant parents who may not have entered legally. It includes providing plenty of voting machines in Republican leaning areas to make voting easier and the process shorter while shortchanging Dem areas of the necessary machines to force long lines and increased voting times.

    It is all part of an intentional effort to allow a minority to keep power in a democratic republic where the majority is suppose to rule the day.
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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i'm sorry, but didn't the minority party in Wisconsin just refuse to even allow the government to function rather than lose a vote?
    May I assume you're anti filibuster?
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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    i'm ambiguous on it. but fleeing the state in order to deny quorum is a very different order of things than a fillibuster. while a single bill is under fillibuster, the government is continuing to function. other pieces of work can be put forth while the threat of fillibuster stalls that which is under more serious debate. a compromise can be more easily struck at any point in time that would allow a measure to at least come to the floor for a vote. at the very least a fillibuster entails senators doing their jobs. fleeing a state to deny quorum is basically saying that you are willing to bring the workings of the government to a screeching halt in order to get your way. a fillibuster is a sometimes annoying procedure that gives a final bit of push to a minority that is strong in its' convictions. fleeing the state is like the kid that grabs the football and throws it on a rooftop because the other kids won't let him be quarterback.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i'm ambiguous on it. but fleeing the state in order to deny quorum is a very different order of things than a fillibuster. while a single bill is under fillibuster, the government is continuing to function. other pieces of work can be put forth while the threat of fillibuster stalls that which is under more serious debate. a compromise can be more easily struck at any point in time that would allow a measure to at least come to the floor for a vote. at the very least a fillibuster entails senators doing their jobs. fleeing a state to deny quorum is basically saying that you are willing to bring the workings of the government to a screeching halt in order to get your way. a fillibuster is a sometimes annoying procedure that gives a final bit of push to a minority that is strong in its' convictions. fleeing the state is like the kid that grabs the football and throws it on a rooftop because the other kids won't let him be quarterback.
    Only the modern filibuster. The original filibuster meant a single person had to take up all of the senate's time by talking nonstop. For that day Strom Thurmond was reading his mom's cookbooks, no other business could be done. It was only after fairly recent rules reforms that it didn't bring things to a halt.
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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    i'll say it for the millionth and tenth time cp, dues are not used for political purposes, that money is by donation by individual union members , and is separate from regular dues...some people here really do need to do some homework, and quit repeating misinformation about dues and how they are spent.
    up to 40% of cta dues go to political action, members can opt out of that portion of their payments by writing a letter and resigning from the union

    not a wise career choice, however, for a public school teacher to dump on the union

    it would make for some pretty tense relations, for example

    Special Legal Notice to California Teachers: How to Get About a $300 refund of CTA Nonbargaining Expenses | National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation

    Class-Action Lawsuit Pending Against California Teacher Union - by Karla Dial - School Reform News

    Teachers Boost Dues to Battle Gov. - Los Angeles Times

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    union members are taxpayers. people who support union members are taxpayers. therefore, union members work in the interest of some taxpayers.

    this isn't about unions versus taxpayers. this about taxpayers vs. taxpayers. citizens vs. citizens. like every other political battle.
    What's your compliant then? Seems to me THE PEOPLE have spoken and decided to LIMIT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING in the public service sector. If you have a problem take it up with the PEOPLE who elected representatives via the mandate held in Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution. Collective Bargaining was first established by an act of legislation and it can be regulated via the same process but the SPIN coming from the left wishes to project this gift from the Tax Payers as if it were some unalienable right based upon a Civil Liberty.
    Last edited by Walter; 03-13-11 at 08:19 AM.

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    Re: A Very Modest Victory in Wisconsin

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    What's your compliant then? Seems to me THE PEOPLE have spoken and decided to LIMIT COLLECTIVE BARGAINING in the public service sector. If you have a problem take it up with the PEOPLE who elected representatives via the mandate held in Article 4 Section 4 of the US Constitution. Collective Bargaining was first established by an act of legislation and it can be regulated via the same process but the SPIN coming from the left wishes to project this gift from the Tax Payers as if it were some unalienable right based upon a Civil Liberty.
    Walker and the republicans in the wisconsin senate, hardly the people.

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