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$101,091: Annual Compensation for Average Milwaukee Teacher

cpwill said:
the last few decades have seen teacher compensation soar and student scores plummit. I'm thinking I would like to see your evidence that there is that strong a correlation between the two at this point.
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Part of the part (not all!) is parents. Give little Johnny a "D" and the parents beotch up a storm and threaten to sue, so teacher hands out a "B" or higher instead to save the hassle. When little Johnny turns 18 he feels "special" because of his grades, but in reality, he doesn't know crap.
 
cpwill said:
the last few decades have seen teacher compensation soar and student scores plummit. I'm thinking I would like to see your evidence that there is that strong a correlation between the two at this point.
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Our kids and most of their friends got better grades than I ever did. Might be that good grades are easier to get now?
As for compensation soaring...maybe in some places, but the last 2 years in Peoria Unified school district in AZ, no raises....due to budget issues. we have the recession to blame for that.
 
Divine Wind said:
Part of the part (not all!) is parents. Give little Johnny a "D" and the parents beotch up a storm and threaten to sue, so teacher hands out a "B" or higher instead to save the hassle. When little Johnny turns 18 he feels "special" because of his grades, but in reality, he doesn't know crap.
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or crap is all he knows....
a friend with an engineering degree went back to school to become a teacher. She didn't last long. She caught students teaching, and the parents had a fit when she failed them on the test. The school did not back her up, and she quit.
The high school in a small town in Idaho where we lived for a while had an honor roll and a high honor roll. Only the best made the high honor roll, practically the rest of the student body made the honor roll, even if they couldn't spell, punctuate, construct a sentence or paragraph properly, etc.
 
haymarket said:
And I would like to see your data supporting both of your claims as well.
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that teacher compensation has risen while student performances have dropped?

you really need to see evidence of that?
 
information from Maggie

* Out of 95,000 tenured teachers in Illinois an average of seven are fired each year, two for poor performance and five for misconduct.

* Eighty-four percent of Illinois' school districts have never given any tenured teacher a bad job evaluation during an 11-year period.
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Excellent evidence which shows that administrators are doing a woefully sad job of performing their own duties. But your outrage and ire is directed to teachers and not to school administrators (who are NOT unionized by the way) who are responsible for holding teachers accountable.

Amazing. Simply amazing.
 
cpwill said:
that teacher compensation has risen while student performances have dropped?

you really need to see evidence of that?
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YES. And please connect them to the same school district so we can see the actual connection where it takes place.
 
haymarket said:
Excellent evidence which shows that administrators are doing a woefully sad job of performing their own duties. But your outrage and ire is directed to teachers and not to school administrators (who are NOT unionized by the way) who are responsible for holding teachers accountable.

Amazing. Simply amazing.
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fascinating. if it's administrators fault that the unions are so successful at defending bad teachers, is it also the teachers fault that some students have mental deficiencies, or are extreme behavioral problems?
 
cpwill said:
that teacher compensation has risen while student performances have dropped?

you really need to see evidence of that?
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I wouldn't doubt that student performance has dropped in some areas, or that teacher compensation has risen (you first said soared, backing off?). Teachers get raises each year, if the money is in the budget, just like workers in other jobs...
Student performance is NOT a function of poor teaching as much as it is poor parenting and lazy students. If they spent as much time studying as they do listening to crap music and watching crap TV, they might do better.
 
In one sense, it's quite remarkable that average teacher salaries have increased. Since union contracts dictate that pay be based on longevity, replacing retired teachers at the top of the salary schedule with new ones who make the minimum base salary puts downward pressure on the overall average salary. As demonstrated, increasing enrollments in public charter schools also limits the growth of the average teacher salary because those teachers earn less.

On the other hand, it's not surprising to see rising average salaries. Teacher pay is determined by a single salary schedule that has built-in automatic pay raises, based solely on longevity and the types of college degrees obtained. On top of this, districts make all their staffing decisions based on seniority, meaning that the highest paid teachers will always be the last ones let go if districts must downsize their staff due to declining enrollments or rising labor costs.

Since these factors contributing to a rising average salary do not have any significant impact on improving teacher effectiveness, we shouldn't expect student achievement to rise alongside the average teacher salary....
 
haymarket said:
YES. And please connect them to the same school district so we can see the actual connection where it takes place.
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:lol: no thanks. i'm tired of doing endless research for you only to have you pretend it doesn't exist. :) i think i'll go with your strategy here and leave this a just-so argument.


over the past couple of decades, teacher compensation has risen while student scores have dropped [/just-so] :)
 
UtahBill said:
I wouldn't doubt that student performance has dropped in some areas, or that teacher compensation has risen (you first said soared, backing off?). Teachers get raises each year, if the money is in the budget, just like workers in other jobs.
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actually teacher pay raises are often mandated in their contract. it's all seniority, after all.

Student performance is NOT a function of poor teaching as much as it is poor parenting and lazy students. If they spent as much time studying as they do listening to crap music and watching crap TV, they might do better.
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true.





and this all raises a good point; why should we suspect that higher pay is linked to student performance, since the Unions thus far have successfully defeated every effort to link pay to performance?
 
UtahBill said:
or crap is all he knows....
a friend with an engineering degree went back to school to become a teacher. She didn't last long. She caught students teaching, and the parents had a fit when she failed them on the test. The school did not back her up, and she quit.
The high school in a small town in Idaho where we lived for a while had an honor roll and a high honor roll. Only the best made the high honor roll, practically the rest of the student body made the honor roll, even if they couldn't spell, punctuate, construct a sentence or paragraph properly, etc.
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Sad, isn't it? The United States of America is turning into the Liability nation where everyone is afraid of being sued.
 
cpwill said:
:lol: no thanks. i'm tired of doing endless research for you only to have you pretend it doesn't exist. :) i think i'll go with your strategy here and leave this a just-so argument.


over the past couple of decades, teacher compensation has risen while student scores have dropped [/just-so] :)
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Bound to be true somewhere....not true elsewhere.....
Expectations seem to have been lowered, and I can see part of it. when you go for 40 years working and never once used the trig, geometry, english literature, etc. that you were forced to learn, it makes sense to want the curriculum changed to better reflect modern times. But if the districts won't change the course material, you compensate by making it easier to get good grades in the useless subjects so the kids can move on....
I have been an electronics tech and reactor operator, and outside of the classroom, I have never used any math higher than basic algebra. I know engineers who have never used calculus, once on the job.
Times have changed, dramatically, but schools are slow to catch on to that fact.
 
cpwill said:
:lol: no thanks. i'm tired of doing endless research for you only to have you pretend it doesn't exist. :) i think i'll go with your strategy here and leave this a just-so argument.


over the past couple of decades, teacher compensation has risen while student scores have dropped [/just-so] :)
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I am not surprised that you cannot back up your claim with facts and evidence. Its probably unfair to ask you to find proof which does not exist.

You should learn a lesson from your posts on the teachers union buying and owning the negotiators across the table form them and my insistence on actual real world evidence proving that they have done this. I want evidence which proves the claim. If you tell me that somebody had sex with somebody else, its not enough to show me the guy picking her up at her door, the couple dining at a nice restaurant, the two dancing at a club, and he going into her place for a late night cup of coffee. Sorry, but all that shows is those things and nothing more.

I think that is fair and that is the way evidence works. If you have a smoking gun - show it.

I would love to work in the infamous Johnnie Cochran glove line ..... but will leave that for another time.
 
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haymarket said:
information from Maggie

Excellent evidence which shows that administrators are doing a woefully sad job of performing their own duties. But your outrage and ire is directed to teachers and not to school administrators (who are NOT unionized by the way) who are responsible for holding teachers accountable.

Amazing. Simply amazing.
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First, the problem is tenure and the hoop-jumping districts have to do to get rid of bad teachers. And you know it. Second, may I see a link that Administrators are not members of a union? Bet I can't.

Unions of the AFL-CIO

Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) | Contact info | Website
Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU) | Contact info | Website
American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE) | Contact info | Website
American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada (AFM) | Contact info | Website
American Federation of School Administrators (AFSA) | Contact info | Website
Etc. Etc. Etc.
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http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/unions/index.cfm
 
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cpwill said:
actually teacher pay raises are often mandated in their contract. it's all seniority, after all.



true.





and this all raises a good point; why should we suspect that higher pay is linked to student performance, since the Unions thus far have successfully defeated every effort to link pay to performance?
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a teacher with well motivated students will likely do much better than a teacher with poorly motivated students. The raw material comes at you as it is, not as you wish. If teachers could kick the worst students out of their classrooms, the parents would take notice.
The worst in some areas end up in schools of last resort, hopefully at the parents expense.
 
I come from one of the best public school districts in the country...it's really hard for me to read Noodle's claims that all teachers have to do is walk in and write stuff on the chalkboard in order to do their job. This simply isn't the case. We have a teacher SHORTAGE in this country, not a surplus. That should tell you something.
 
UtahBill said:
a teacher with well motivated students will likely do much better than a teacher with poorly motivated students. The raw material comes at you as it is, not as you wish. If teachers could kick the worst students out of their classrooms, the parents would take notice.
The worst in some areas end up in schools of last resort, hopefully at the parents expense.
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Kicking out the worst students is not the answer. Can't think of a better place for "worst students" than the classroom. The problem is kids with behavioral problems. And why can't they be kicked out of the classroom? Can you say, "Follow the money?"
 
MaggieD said:
First, the problem is tenure and the hoop-jumping districts have to do to get rid of bad teachers. And you know it. Second, may I see a link that Administrators are not members of a union? Bet I can't.



Unions of the AFL-CIO
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Maggie--- sorry - but I do not know it. I was a teachers union building representative and union official for over 20 years and saw many teachers drummed out and fired for good cause. Its simply a matter of a bad teacher, a good administrator who knows how to perform their job function, and following the contract which exists between the Board and the Union. Some administrators may have their own professional organization, but I assure you, they are not in the teachers union nor are they represented by the same bargaining unit. Its a basic and serious conflict of interest.

A link which shows that Administrators are NOT a member of the teachers union? You are asking me to prove a negative? Amazing. Go to any teachers contract with any Board of Education you want to read. Your choice. Tell me if you can find that school administrators are members of the union. Its a contradiction in terms.

You have really outdone yourself on this demand. Normally you are quite reasonable. But this..... well Maggie ... this is rather silly.
 
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MaggieD said:
Kicking out the worst students is not the answer. Can't think of a better place for "worst students" than the classroom. The problem is kids with behavioral problems. And why can't they be kicked out of the classroom? Can you say, "Follow the money?"
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when I said worst students, I didn't mean those with the worst grades....but the worst attitudes ( not well motivated)...the problem makers, the ones who can't get along with other students, etc.
 
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:rofl -- And Haymarket moves the goalposts yet again. :rofl :rofl

You say:

....school administrators (who are NOT unionized by the way)
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I show:

Unions of the AFL-CIO

Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) | Contact info | Website
Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU) | Contact info | Website
American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE) | Contact info | Website
American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada (AFM) | Contact info | Website
American Federation of School Administrators (AFSA) | Contact info | Website
Etc. Etc. Etc.
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Now you say:

They are not in the teachers union nor are they represented by the same bargaining unit.
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You are quite the hoot, my friend.

EPIC FAIL.jpg
 
cpwill said:
actually teacher pay raises are often mandated in their contract. it's all seniority, after all.



true.





and this all raises a good point; why should we suspect that higher pay is linked to student performance, since the Unions thus far have successfully defeated every effort to link pay to performance?
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if in the budget, at least in states other than Illinois....my son got nothing the last 2 years here in AZ....
He is in the process of getting his administrators certificate, so he can get a pay raise. He would rather just teach, but can't afford to with a wife and 3 kids. He coaches and DJ's for extra money, his wife does photo shoots at weddings, school dances, etc.
It isn't easy being poor, and no good teacher should be.
 
StillBallin75 said:
I come from one of the best public school districts in the country...it's really hard for me to read Noodle's claims that all teachers have to do is walk in and write stuff on the chalkboard in order to do their job. This simply isn't the case. We have a teacher SHORTAGE in this country, not a surplus. That should tell you something.
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Agreed that underplaying the job does nothing to support the credibility of their claims. Salary.com lists some more factual, less political data on teacher salaries: Teacher-High-School Salary - Salary.com

Note that the figure is for a 15-year teaching veteran. Also note that geographical locations have different demands. While $50K goes quite a ways in my part of Texas, it doesn't go very far in Los Angeles or New York.

Further, as SB75 alludes, jobs are like commodities subject to the laws of supply and demand. Schools need teachers, but if there is a teacher shortage, they need to offer more money to attract teachers to take the job. Why put up with the BS of teaching someone else's spoiled brats if they can make the same amount of money in a nice, quiet office job and not have to take their job home with them every night?
 
Divine Wind said:
Why put up with the BS of teaching someone else's spoiled brats if they can make the same amount of money in a nice, quiet office job and not have to take their job home with them every night?
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Oh, I dunno. Might have something to do with summers off, two weeks at Christmas, spring break, being able to retire at 55 with a healthy pension...
 
Kandahar said:
By this logic...
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It's not logic. It's the definition of annualized.
Kandahar said:
But in the value that they got for their tax dollars, it most definitely would.
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Perhaps, but that's not annualizing the cost.

If I owe $1000/yr in property taxes and I pay that once a year on one day, I can't "annualize" that and say it's equivalent to $365,000/yr. It's still just $1000/yr. It's already annualized. It's already in it's annual form.
 
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