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Thread: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    43% believe that the public employee unions have too much influence on politics in Wisconsin while only 9% say they have too little influence. Forty-two percent (42%) say the public union influence is about right...
    Any way you cut it - a minority believes that unions have too much influence in Wisconsin. 43% will NOT win you any elections in a two person contest.
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    First, you should have said Wisconsin voters.
    From your link...


    Second...
    I'll take 13% more support for not ending collective bargaining from a conservative poll over the 1% difference in whatever your influence question means.
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    it suddenly occurs to me; as per the OP: does this mean that we can start throwing all the entitlements in when we discuss teachers "salaries" now?

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevergolfpar View Post
    How do you make the leap from my argument of privatization to the quality of life in third world countries?
    Developing country do not have many of the public services provided by the government in Developed country. So if you think that is so great, you should go live there.

    Name me one thing that the government does better than the private sector? Allow a for profit company to run some of these services I mentioned (without burdensome regulations) and every single service would be much better and cheaper.
    I already named two, there's also the police force, the judicial system, food safety regulations, just off the top of my head. And you are either smoked or smoked if you believe that "every single service would be much better and cheaper".

    Also spare me the hollow rhetoric about the third world countries as well. I own a home in the Philippines (Cavite SW of Manila) and have experience dealing with the hospital in metro Manila (MCM to be exact). The service I received was far superior to anything I have experienced in this country (though I admit the hospital was not as modern as in this country--but close). So when you start comparing privately run companies, like hospitals in third world countries to their American counterparts you best be careful. After all, how does it make you side look when a PRIVATE hospital in a third world country like the Philippines is every bit as good as our highly regulated hospitals in a modern country like our own? Should our hospitals not be light years better with all of their regulation and government involvement?

    When we fail to beat third world countries in quality of health care, what do you attribute that to?

    Did I ever argue that with the first world must "beat third world countries"? Stop using strawman.

    FYI, "quality of health care" is better in countries with national health services like France and UK than in the US or any developing country. So get your facts right.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 03-05-11 at 05:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    No, because they have their paid lobbyists in congress to do their crying for them. And, besides, there are so many loopholes in the tax law that many corporations don't pay a cent anyways.
    Care to show us those loopholes? I ask, because I want to learn how my small business can use those same loopholes to not pay a cent in taxes, too.

    Sounds to me, like you're buying into the propaganda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Care to show us those loopholes? I ask, because I want to learn how my small business can use those same loopholes to not pay a cent in taxes, too.

    Sounds to me, like you're buying into the propaganda.
    I am sure a good CPA who does taxes can assist you with this professional request. Your local yellow pages will list many.
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Developing country do not have many of the public services provided by the government in Developed country. So if you think that is so great, you should go live there.
    I do live there 2 months every year and speak with greater authority than you on the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I already named two, there's also the police force, the judicial system, food safety regulations, just off the top of my head. And you are either smoked or smoked if you believe that "every single service would be much better and cheaper".
    Like I said, if there was a way to privatize every organization that you stated above, they would all run much better and be more efficient than they currently are. Lets take what prompted this thread to begin with; Education. When comparing public school performance to private school performance, the private schools perform a mean average of 4 to 18 points higher than their public counterparts (according to NAEP). Proof that the product is better but what about the cost?

    Again using NAEP data, in 2004 the per pupil spending for public schools was $9,620 while the cost of private schools was $6,600 per pupil. Using this data, what conclusions do you derive? Private schools are able to educate students at a higher level and lower cost! Pretty much blows a hole in your theory that the public sector is better than the private sector.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Did I ever argue that with the first world must "beat third world countries"? Stop using strawman.
    Are you not the one who criticized my position and then told me to live in a third world country to enjoy their inferior services? When I informed you that I do sometimes live in a third world country and am intimate with the services they provide and tell you the services are not inferior you claim straw man? I ask you, do you always use the excuse of 'straw man' when you lose a debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    FYI, "quality of health care" is better in countries with national health services like France and UK than in the US or any developing country. So get your facts right.
    While I have never been to a medical facility in France, I have been to one in the UK (I lived in the UK while studying International Business) I can assure you health services are inferior to both the United States and Philippines. My girlfriend (at the time) broke her leg while riding a bike, she waited damn near 9 hours before seeing a doctor, a little under 2 hours for the x-ray and another 6 hours before she was fitted with a cast. After it was over the nurse said to me we were lucky to see the doctor at all as it was not very busy that day! WTF! Had I flown her to my doctor in Chicago instead of taking her to her British hospital. She would have still received the cast and been damn near home to Britain by the time we left the hospital. If France is anything like the U.K. I'll pass. Maybe you should get your facts straight.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevergolfpar View Post
    I do live there 2 months every year and speak with greater authority than you on the topic.
    Do you realise how delusional that sounds?

    Who give you the authority? You. Do you think that has any meaning on the internet?

    Even if we were to take your words at face value, by what measure is "your authority"? How much time you spent in a developing country? 14 years here. Born there? Checked.

    What does all that really means in this debate? Nothing.


    Like I said, if there was a way to privatize every organization that you stated above, they would all run much better and be more efficient than they currently are. Lets take what prompted this thread to begin with; Education. When comparing public school performance to private school performance, the private schools perform a mean average of 4 to 18 points higher than their public counterparts (according to NAEP). Proof that the product is better but what about the cost?

    Again using NAEP data, in 2004 the per pupil spending for public schools was $9,620 while the cost of private schools was $6,600 per pupil. Using this data, what conclusions do you derive? Private schools are able to educate students at a higher level and lower cost! Pretty much blows a hole in your theory that the public sector is better than the private sector.
    Where are the links for those numbers?

    And schools is not even on the list that I gave. I never claimed that the private sector can't do better than the public sector. You are one who make the broad claim that "Allow a for profit company to run some of these services I mentioned (without burdensome regulations) and every single service would be much better and cheaper." Then you asked for example of what the government does better, and I've given them: services such as policing, judiciary, road, water sanitation, food safety regulation. You have yet to back your claim by showing that these are better provided for by the private sector.


    Are you not the one who criticized my position and then told me to live in a third world country to enjoy their inferior services? When I informed you that I do sometimes live in a third world country and am intimate with the services they provide and tell you the services are not inferior you claim straw man? I ask you, do you always use the excuse of 'straw man' when you lose a debate?
    I call it when I see it. I didn't claim that the "first world" must "beat third world" in every instance. You implied that I was, which is a strawman. I'm not delusional enough to believe that there are no services catering to rich people in developing country that are as good as the best in developed country. Are those services typical of the general population and it translates into better standard of living for the general population than in developed country? Hell no. You see, I'm not delusional.

    And if you like it so much, I'm still wondering why you don't move there altogether, instead of just two months as you claim?


    While I have never been to a medical facility in France, I have been to one in the UK (I lived in the UK while studying International Business) I can assure you health services are inferior to both the United States and Philippines. My girlfriend (at the time) broke her leg while riding a bike, she waited damn near 9 hours before seeing a doctor, a little under 2 hours for the x-ray and another 6 hours before she was fitted with a cast. After it was over the nurse said to me we were lucky to see the doctor at all as it was not very busy that day! WTF! Had I flown her to my doctor in Chicago instead of taking her to her British hospital. She would have still received the cast and been damn near home to Britain by the time we left the hospital. If France is anything like the U.K. I'll pass. Maybe you should get your facts straight.
    Funny. It seems you don't even know the difference between fact and opinion.

    Your subjective experience (hyperbold or not), are not facts. If they were, my nearly 4 years in the UK would be as good as any - and I found the NHS to be quite good compared to the insurance system in the US. However, my opinion is not fact, but these are objective enough to be acceptable to most people as fact:

    The Commonwealth Fund -- Health Policy, Health Reform, and Performance Improvement
    NHS satisfaction highest for over 20 years | Health Insurance magazine
    NHS satisfaction highest in the world | Abetternhs's Blog

    Those all show the UK and France performing better than the US, so I repeat, get your facts straight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Free_Radical View Post

    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

    Brian

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I am sure a good CPA who does taxes can assist you with this professional request. Your local yellow pages will list many.
    I already have a damn good CPA and he can't show me those, "loopholes". I was hoping you folks that insist that they exist could steer me in the right direction. Unless, you're constantly parroting some class-warfare talking point, that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I already have a damn good CPA and he can't show me those, "loopholes". I was hoping you folks that insist that they exist could steer me in the right direction. Unless, you're constantly parroting some class-warfare talking point, that is.
    Truth be told, most people don't understand business taxes. "Why do you care if it costs $5,000???? It's freakin' tax deductible." -- Honestly, that's the way half the world looks at it. Doesn't cost $5,000 at all!! Tax loophole!!
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