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Thread: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee

  1. #121
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    This is the difference between a liberal and a conservative, while you see the tax cuts as the cause of our collapsed economy, I see it as just as much a spending problem. Even in the best of times ( the Clinton years) our nation debt still rose every year, that was with a deep defense spending cuts, and at the time the largest tax increase in our history, and robbing our SS fund to boot. Yet with all this, we still seen our nation debt rise over 1.5 trillion dollars.

    Now that reality has caught up with us, liberal see the whole thing as a tax problem, and want to find someone to blame, and will blame anything other then our unrestrained spending for the last 30 or 40 years.
    Can you show the bold part? If there was a surplus, by extension the debt must have been reduced.
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    And I wasn't making an appeal to authority, I was making an appeal to the philosophical body of work of the founders, the worth and content of which should be well-known to anyone with a cursory understanding of basic history and philosophy.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    To Haymarket regarding corporate tax liability : Amortization of capital expenditures, capital improvements, and green energy solutions.

    These three things are heavily written into the tax codes for corporations. These three things are also increasingly called for when you tighten regulations on things like emissions, cleaner energy (read: solar panels), and having to remodel factories for new technologies.

    So it shouldnt come as a suprise that the corporations like Boeing, oil pipelines, aerospace, and GE have lower tax liability, they are putting out a lot of capital outlay to stay competitve. In the case of GE they are particularly chummy with the current administration and are embarking on a lot of green energy projects that are partially subsidized as well as having generous write off opportunities.

    In the case of companies like Apple and Microsoft, their primary capital is ideas, they dont retool their production as often as say Caterpillar or GM might.

    Regarding the public sector unions, how much is the unfunded liability of the benefits package? That tells you how much taxpayers are putting in on top of regular salaries. THAT is the figure that we need to know and should be discussing---the difference between what the teachers put in and what is scheduled to be recieved.

    I dont see anyone looking at this but Im betting the administrative overhead and paychecks for same are quite high as well in Wisconsin. If you want to cut somewhere, cut administrator paychecks and budgets, but you will hit more waste than you think with that tactic.

    Anywho, resume entrenched positions.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This is bunk. The percentage of taxation on profits doesn't decrease.

    Ya'll really need to stop reading this propaganda.

    I love Leftists scream about, "loopholes", too. Where are those loopholes? Better question, what are they. I want some of that, too.
    Do you understand how corporate taxes work? The big "loophole" in corporate taxes is corporations literally have two sets of books: 1. Tax books, which takes the most extreme position on accelerating deductions (including aggressive depreciation, expensing of assets at purchase), stalling revenue recognition (including use foreign international sales corporations and domestic international sales corporations aka FISC and DISC) and the ability to allocate large elements of costs, particularly cost of goods sold between states and between countries to get the most favored tax benefit, and 2. Book books, which slow expenses and accelerate income, thus showing the most favorable profit position that can be created, and of course are used for the financial reports given to shareholders.

    The two sets of books are literally reconciled in the financial statements in a liability account called Deferred Tax Liability (which is the mythical tax that would be paid on the book profits, but is deferred to the end of time by continuing to create new tax losses). The footnotes to the financial statements include quite a few book/tax reconciliations. You should read some (the financial report of any public company will have this). They are really quite fascinating. Of course, the sophistication on how this is done provides very, very good income for accountants and lawyers, not to mention the Big Four accounting firms. They are all paid quite handsomely to ensure that Pepsi, Exxon-Mobil, GE, etc, never pay any tax. Meanwhile, small businesses do not have such luxuries and pay most of the corporate taxes.

    So, corporations have incredible tools at their disposal (including tax accountants and tax attorneys) to shelter income. Of course, the better the accountant/lawyer base, the lower the effective tax rate on corporate income. Corporate effective tax rates have been falling for years, though the marginal rate has been constant. I will post a table later as soon as I can extract it from its source document.

    This is just another example of the bifurcation of our economy.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 03-04-11 at 09:23 AM.

  4. #124
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    This is the difference between a liberal and a conservative, while you see the tax cuts as the cause of our collapsed economy, I see it as just as much a spending problem. Even in the best of times ( the Clinton years) our nation debt still rose every year, that was with a deep defense spending cuts, and at the time the largest tax increase in our history, and robbing our SS fund to boot. Yet with all this, we still seen our nation debt rise over 1.5 trillion dollars.

    Now that reality has caught up with us, liberal see the whole thing as a tax problem, and want to find someone to blame, and will blame anything other then our unrestrained spending for the last 30 or 40 years.
    Our national debt rose each year during the Clinton years only if you count total debt, which includes the debt to the social security trust fund (as opposed to debt to public, which is what the government actually owes other than itself, actually fell during the final Clinton years). Even if you want to call it total debt, then the debt increase was very slow during the Clinton years, in fact, it fell as a function of GDP (see chart below).

    If you want to talk about total debt, then you can't say that we robbed social security as it was the debt to social security that rose (the flip side being the social security had investments in US treasuries and was intact). Please be consistent in your argument.

    Total debt, in and of itself, isn't the issue. Its the capacity to handle the debt that is the issue. This capacity is measured as debt to GDP. Debt is going to go up with income, just as you mature in your career, you are likely to make more money and buy a bigger house with a bigger mortgage.... but hopefully your overall financial health improves as that new mortgage mortgage payment comes at a time when you have higher income and more personal equity.... again, the measure is your ability to handle the debt.

    BTW... you are either confusing debt with deficit or missed a decimal place as the debt is closer to 15.0T and the deficit (the amount projected to be added to the debt each year) about $1.5T.... and thank you for suggesting that a tax increase helped to slow the debt increase you speak about during the Clinton years...
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    Last edited by upsideguy; 03-04-11 at 09:40 AM.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read here. I've personally seen first hand people whose house is burning having to negotiate with fire fighters. Not a good bargaining position. And ambulances fighting over people in car accidents to take to their hopsitals. You would think it's good for the crash victims but the hospitals are almost always dodgy. You should visit those third world countries you talked about and actually live there for a year or two to enjoy all these wonderful privately runned services.




    Your point is what? That the government don't have to pay those private companies as you want the private companies to not pay the government for the services they enjoy?
    How do you make the leap from my argument of privatization to the quality of life in third world countries? Name me one thing that the government does better than the private sector? Allow a for profit company to run some of these services I mentioned (without burdensome regulations) and every single service would be much better and cheaper.

    Also spare me the hollow rhetoric about the third world countries as well. I own a home in the Philippines (Cavite SW of Manila) and have experience dealing with the hospital in metro Manila (MCM to be exact). The service I received was far superior to anything I have experienced in this country (though I admit the hospital was not as modern as in this country--but close). So when you start comparing privately run companies, like hospitals in third world countries to their American counterparts you best be careful. After all, how does it make you side look when a PRIVATE hospital in a third world country like the Philippines is every bit as good as our highly regulated hospitals in a modern country like our own? Should our hospitals not be light years better with all of their regulation and government involvement?

    When we fail to beat third world countries in quality of health care, what do you attribute that to?

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    [QUOTE=And how do you explain the fact that Demark has one highest income tax rate in the world and yet enjoy one of the highest quality of life in the world?[QUOTE]

    Measured by whom? While Denmark is a beautiful country, I would never rate it high in 'quality of life'. In fact, I cannot think of one European country I would like to live in, or own a home. Try playing a round of golf in Denmark, the courses are cow pastures and way over-priced.

    Where is Thailand on the highest quality of life list? Now that is a country I would like to live...Outstanding golf courses, reasonably priced, easy to book a tee time and great weather.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevergolfpar View Post
    And how do you explain the fact that Demark has one highest income tax rate in the world and yet enjoy one of the highest quality of life in the world?
    Measured by whom? While Denmark is a beautiful country, I would never rate it high in 'quality of life'. In fact, I cannot think of one European country I would like to live in, or own a home. Try playing a round of golf in Denmark, the courses are cow pastures and way over-priced.
    always in the top three of the international happiness index

    Where is Thailand on the highest quality of life list? Now that is a country I would like to live...Outstanding golf courses, reasonably priced, easy to book a tee time and great weather.
    always in the top three places to visit by child predators
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    always in the top three of the international happiness index


    always in the top three places to visit by child predators
    In other words the international index is a bunch of bunk. Nothing more than someone's opinion. Opinion's are not good source material when trying to make a persuasive argument in support of higher taxes and more governmental regulation.

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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    More new polls out showing voters don't support Walker's attempt to end collective bargaining for public servants, including one by the conservative Rasmussen Reports:

    "A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Wisconsin voters shows that just 39% favor weakening collective bargaining rights and 52% are opposed."

    Wisconsin Poll: Support for Budget Cutting, Not for Weakening Collective Bargaining Rights - Rasmussen Reports™
    Boy oh boy. When even Rasmussen provides this data, the righties will have to admit that there is a lack of public support for his anti-union measures. This news will turn around conservative anti-union opinion on this board quickly.

    Oh - and I just got title to the Brooklyn Bridge if anyone wants to purchase it from me... or even lease it at pretty favorable terms.
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    Re: The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Emplo

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    More new polls out showing voters don't support Walker's attempt to end collective bargaining for public servants, including one by the conservative Rasmussen Reports:

    "A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Wisconsin voters shows that just 39% favor weakening collective bargaining rights and 52% are opposed."

    Wisconsin Poll: Support for Budget Cutting, Not for Weakening Collective Bargaining Rights - Rasmussen Reports™
    First, you should have said Wisconsin voters.
    From your link...
    Nationally, 47% of voters support the Governor and 42% support the unions.
    Second...

    43% believe that the public employee unions have too much influence on politics in Wisconsin while only 9% say they have too little influence. Forty-two percent (42%) say the public union influence is about right...

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